Hill Helicopters HX50

[Bell_ringer]

Originally Posted by Wide Mouth Frog

I really don't understand you crab, there are so many contradictions. You've been at the peak of your profession, you respect entrepreneurship, you've experienced the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, yet something about this venture has got under your skin. I suspect it's something to do with money giving access to your world, which you believe should be restricted. I may be completely wrong, but I think it would help you to explore why this triggers you.

Choosing to play the man and not the point being made is a pretty poor show. Besides, aren't "triggers" reserved for Gen Z and those aspiring to play the victim?
Pick a point you disagree with and debate it, failing that, rather pipe down until there is a coherent point to be made.

[Wide Mouth Frog]

Originally Posted by Agile

At a previous company we would teach our managers to be hands-off with the engineering department; especially with the new products section.
The expression was: "let them do their work and keep sliding money below the door"

We all know he is bitting more than he can chew
We all know (me included) that the vertical integration has been pushed too far
We all know that the schedule will slip big time, and sizable chalenges are yet to come.

if after all that, you as a stakeholder, if you still think that there is a chance for your aircraft to come out,
then best you can do is reduce the pressure on the reporting effort.

I am not a stakeholder and hardly a believer but enjoy seeing the effort unfold, for good or bad.

But Agile made the point very eloquently, I'm probing why crab is so vexed about it. PS. my daughter is Gen Z and I think they're a great crew. I wish them the best navigating the shoals that we have.

[206 jock]

Originally Posted by Wide Mouth Frog

But Agile made the point very eloquently, I'm probing why crab is so vexed about it. PS. my daughter is Gen Z and I think they're a great crew. I wish them the best navigating the shoals that we have.

Maybe read this thread right from the top. Crab has been consistent - along with a few others of us - in pointing out the issues that Hill have to overcome in developing this machine. They have already missed deadlines, over promised on deliveries (1000 units a year! No chance). Their finance model is shaky and I have never had a satisfactory answer to the question of what happens if Jason Hill becomes ill? I did get an answer...from Jason Hill pretending to be someone else. They have perhaps bitten off a lot more than they can chew. But it's your money, spend it how you like.

[Wide Mouth Frog]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

A very good friend of mine started out as a boat building apprentice over 50 years ago and now runs (with his son) a very successful composite materials company.

They had to innovate, invest, take risks, explore new concepts and materials and now have three locations to work from employing the thick end of 100 people.

The big difference is that while they were doing this, they were actually producing things for customers to have in their hands and use.

I know, and I get it. I was just struck by the contrast of crab's story to Dr. Hill's. IMHO they are both inspiring tales of entrepreneurship and again IMHO they should both be celebrated. Agile has summarised the situation and it seems to me nobody in the Hill enterprise is being duped. And we can still point out what we think is wrong (lower flame) without assuming bad intentions.

[wrench1]

Originally Posted by Wide Mouth Frog

Agile has summarised the situation and it seems to me nobody in the Hill enterprise is being duped.

I think what you’ll find is most commentators here are not stakeholders in the HX50 so they miss the reasons why someone would participate in that manner. Rotorcraft have always been the elusive goal to the private aircraft owner. A good number make an effort by getting a rotorcraft add-on to their certificate, but the costs or realities of private helicopter ownership keep the majority at bay even at the E/AB levels.

Then the HX50 pops up out of nowhere, following a new process and captures the attention of many private owners, to include those who are/were professional pilots, who see a protentional solution to that elusive goal. And since its been only 5 years into this venture, I think you’ll find the majority of stakeholders remain steadfast and completely understand the risks involved regardless what others think they may know.

[Bell_ringer]

Rotorcraft aren’t elusive to anyone gambling on Hill. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn’t already own something more expensive. The appeal is not missing out, or for the lower end of the market, buying something less interesting like a Robbie.
Hill isn’t revolutionising the industry, he is just tempting you with something far more interesting for the money.

[jeepys]

Will there be any kind of HUMS set up for the prototype(s) I wonder?

[Bell_ringer]

Originally Posted by jeepys

Will there be any kind of HUMS set up for the prototype(s) I wonder?

Some might say, it doesn’t just hum, it has a distinct whiff..

[Ascend Charlie]

And it still doesn't seem to have any method of getting fresh air through an open window. Must have the aircon running to be able to breathe? And with all that glass, it will be rather hot in the sunshine, though that doesn't happen very often in Hill's country...

[Radgirl]

You are correct that Hill seems to have the support of a number of apparently wealthy initial customers with good social media but I know a number of others who are stuck with R44s because they cant justify the cost of any current turbine until Jason Hill came along. They are also persuaded by the improved finish and interior of the HX compared with say the 505. In a number of countries private owners change machines for financial reasons every 5 years or less so Hill makes sense as the next purchase.....However even if Jason is successful the reality in many countries is that self fly rotary is on a downward spiral as a result of increasing costs, aggressive taxation and increasing regulation. The US seems to be the exception.

[wrench1]

Originally Posted by Radgirl

However even if Jason is successful the reality in many countries is that self fly rotary is on a downward spiral as a result of increasing costs, aggressive taxation and increasing regulation. The US seems to be the exception.

I think you’re spot on with cost increases even in the US to a point. Where Hill has made the unique impact is developing it as an experimental amateur-built. This approach has drawn in a very diverse group of people to include your 44 owners and surprisingly others who could never justify any rotorcraft. In all honesty, I think the only reason he received 1000+ slot buyers is because it is E/AB and the associated benefits/savings of that classification.

[Wide Mouth Frog]

Bell Ringer:
Hill isn’t revolutionising the industry, he is just tempting you with something far more interesting for the money.

errr... That is revolutionising the industry, isn't it ?.

[Bell_ringer]

Originally Posted by Wide Mouth Frog

errr... That is revolutionising the industry, isn't it ?.

Depends if you consider styling a revolution or not.
It is likely to revolutionise the life insurance industry, as those that could previously only afford a lethargic, infernal combustion engine, now have way more power to get to an untimely end, so much faster.

[Wide Mouth Frog]

HaHaHa. That's very good ! If I had better tools, I could more effectively demonstrate my incompetence.

[[email protected]]

WMF - I am not vexed by this project so much as baffled - is it just a huge vanity project for Dr Hill to flex his engineering and entrepreneurial muscles or is it really an innovative solution to a problem that doesn't really exist?

Rich people can already buy helicopters and in the same way as the latest Ferrari or Lamborghini or limited edition supercar is coveted, the newest and shiniest editions are aspired to by those with the cash to do so.

All Dr Hill has done, so far, is to show potential buyers the super-special, shiniest new toy to impress their chums with - just like the car manufacturers do with their top end products.

The difference is that those manufacturers have a track record (no pun intended) of producing similar, top end, super shiny cars.

When they create a new model, it is hyped and promoted in much the same way as the HX-50 - it's called advertising and creating desire - it's been working for years but their new models are rarely innovative - just shinier.

Hill is building a new engine from scratch - will it be just like pretty much every other turbine? Yes of course.

Will his new helicopter actually have any ground- breaking new designs in terms of rotors, control systems, avionics or other systems? No.

It really isn't innovation, he's just building from the ground up - just like every other aircraft manufacturer - but he is persuading people it is something special because his first model will be experimental/home built.

Thank you, by the way, for your kind comments, but I was just another military helicopter pilot and instructor who got to be half decent at their job

[Wide Mouth Frog]

You're welcome !

I think Dr. Hill has already answered your question, he regularly says that there is very little engineering innovation, more procedural through vertical integration and avoidance of certification costs. What he does claim is that he is bringing automotive design principles to helicopters, and if you look at the R66 and the 505 in comparison, you've got to admit that he has a point.

Whether he succeeds or not is a luxury that we observers can enjoy from ringside seats.

Very best,
WMF

[Bell_ringer]

Originally Posted by Wide Mouth Frog

HaHaHa. That's very good ! If I had better tools, I could more effectively demonstrate my incompetence.

Indeed, I have lost count of those that have removed themselves from the gene pool, having opted for a Gazelle instead of something more mundane.
Oh the fun they had reliving the military career they never had, until the talent bucket ran empty.

There’s a reason learner drivers don’t have Ferraris.

[PPRuNeUser445748]

Is a Gazelle any more dangerous or harder to fly than an R44? I would think not?

Originally Posted by Bell_ringer

Indeed, I have lost count of those that have removed themselves from the gene pool, having opted for a Gazelle instead of something more mundane.
Oh the fun they had reliving the military career they never had, until the talent bucket ran empty.

There’s a reason learner drivers don’t have Ferraris.

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by johni

Is a Gazelle any more dangerous or harder to fly than an R44? I would think not?

Bell Ringer's point was that inexperienced drivers could easily end up way behind something like a Ferrari because of its performance - the same can be said for the Gazelle with less experienced pilots.

The Gazelle is a fabulous aircraft with few vices but that is why some are tempted to do things in one they would never dream of doing in a 44 or 22.

The one thing that does catch many converts is the Fenestron - very powerful but it delivers that power in a different way to conventional TR - the thrust curve is S shaped instead of a straight line and it is possible to end up with undemanded yaw if you don't anticipate that sort of 'dead zone' either side of neutral and use more pedal (especially right) than you might think is correct for a conventional TR.

Having said that, there is no rate of yaw you can put yourself into that the aircraft can't get you out of - it just requires the correct and sustained inputs.

The manoeuvrability of the Gazelle also tempts people into horsing it around (it will loop and barrel roll in the right hands) but jackstall (servo transparency) can be a killer in a hard right turn.

[[email protected]]

What he does claim is that he is bringing automotive design principles to helicopters, and if you look at the R66 and the 505 in comparison, you've got to admit that he has a point.

Except for the very luxury end of the automotive industry, cars are built down to a price rather than up to a standard.

​​​​​​​If you prefer form over function that's up to you and if people are seduced by sexy styling then that's fine - just don't ask questions about where corners are cut to keep prices down.