Hill Helicopters HX50
As far as I know, the only A5 deaths were due to extremely reckless pilots and not due to the aircraft itself. And the HX50 is *not* a light sport aircraft (there's no such thing for helicopters); it's merely experimental. You do not ever go back to the factory once it's built, and most experimentals are obviously never built in a factory at all, but rather built in the owner's garage or hangar.
The biggest problem with the whole program is the decision to develop their own engine. That is the biggest risk. They should have just used an off the shelf Safran or Rolls. The only drawback would be the price which would of course be higher- probably double- but at least then we would have a proven engine with a reliable track record, and probably have the HX50 flying by now, and I would have paid a premium for that.
The other big mistake they continue to make is pushing out unrealistic timeframes. They've done this from day one, and keep doing it. And I agree with all the other posters on this forum who have been very critical of this aspect. We all know they are impossibly optimistic, this just smashes their credibility. Hill must know this too, (unless they are all cockeyed dreamy optimists which is equally bad) which can only mean they are being deliberately misleading to fill their order books, and I don't like this. Yes, great product, Jason Hill seems to be a very clever guy, and real progress gets made on a weekly basis, its exciting to get the updates, but there's just soooo much more to be done. Realistically I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the end of the decade before I get delivery of my aircraft (serial number in the first 200). And of course there's always a real chance it never eventuates.
Last edited by PowerPedal; 16th Mar 2024 at 00:21.
The following users liked this post:
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 433 Likes
on
228 Posts
I sincerely hope that you do get your helicopter.
But my concern is that the way this is going has so many similarities to a three wheeled car project that was supposedly going to revolutionise low cost personal transport in the USA. Although there were a number of prototypes built, no production cars were ever made and everyone lost their deposit. All the depositors ever got was a bumper sticker and at best a tee shirt with a picture of the car. I considered buying a car if and when they were built but wasn’t prepared to pay up front for a place on the waiting list, simply because I could see the risks. I certainly made the right decision. The deposits seem to have been spent largely on staff salaries.
I can’t help thinking that this aircraft could be called the “Eliocopter”.
But my concern is that the way this is going has so many similarities to a three wheeled car project that was supposedly going to revolutionise low cost personal transport in the USA. Although there were a number of prototypes built, no production cars were ever made and everyone lost their deposit. All the depositors ever got was a bumper sticker and at best a tee shirt with a picture of the car. I considered buying a car if and when they were built but wasn’t prepared to pay up front for a place on the waiting list, simply because I could see the risks. I certainly made the right decision. The deposits seem to have been spent largely on staff salaries.
I can’t help thinking that this aircraft could be called the “Eliocopter”.
Nonetheless, and unlike in the automotive industry, the concept of HX50 has many merits in an industry that has become exorbitantlyexpensive and has turned its back on private owners. If HX50 fails then I believe this will only get worse. My deposit is as much about supporting industry change as it is about getting a helicopter. In the meantime I’ll keep flying my EC120 and tuning in to the monthly updates!
Last edited by PowerPedal; 16th Mar 2024 at 00:24.
PowerPedal, I think you are the first buyer of this helicopter that has publicly acknowledged issues at hand. I'm sure you talk a lot about this among yourselves (other buyers), but maintain Omerta codex in public.
It will be interesting to see how long people keep piling money into this project when the engine is not built/run/tested, and nothing is flying.
At some point people will realise the timescales are not going to be met. The Hill website STILL says deliveries are starting in 2025. Is this deliberate so they get more deposits? Or is it just a case of them forgetting to update the website?
Although people "want to believe" and I guess a £50,000 punt on a helicopter is small change to a lot of people.
At some point people will realise the timescales are not going to be met. The Hill website STILL says deliveries are starting in 2025. Is this deliberate so they get more deposits? Or is it just a case of them forgetting to update the website?
Although people "want to believe" and I guess a £50,000 punt on a helicopter is small change to a lot of people.
I sincerely hope that you do get your helicopter.
But my concern is that the way this is going has so many similarities to a three wheeled car project that was supposedly going to revolutionise low cost personal transport in the USA. Although there were a number of prototypes built, no production cars were ever made and everyone lost their deposit. All the depositors ever got was a bumper sticker and at best a tee shirt with a picture of the car. I considered buying a car if and when they were built but wasn’t prepared to pay up front for a place on the waiting list, simply because I could see the risks. I certainly made the right decision. The deposits seem to have been spent largely on staff salaries.
I can’t help thinking that this aircraft could be called the “Eliocopter”.
But my concern is that the way this is going has so many similarities to a three wheeled car project that was supposedly going to revolutionise low cost personal transport in the USA. Although there were a number of prototypes built, no production cars were ever made and everyone lost their deposit. All the depositors ever got was a bumper sticker and at best a tee shirt with a picture of the car. I considered buying a car if and when they were built but wasn’t prepared to pay up front for a place on the waiting list, simply because I could see the risks. I certainly made the right decision. The deposits seem to have been spent largely on staff salaries.
I can’t help thinking that this aircraft could be called the “Eliocopter”.
If this was a scam, why bother?
Has Elio invited cameras into his premises every month?
I reckon I'm a passably good businessman but haven't the first idea about engineering: if I wanted to get into an engineering project, I would find the right people to surround myself with. But JH seems to think the marketing and money side is simple: keep the order book open, gather thousands of deposits and use that money to design and engineer an all-new helicopter. It's probably about now that it's starting to become clear to him that the first 50% (making some mock ups and getting some lovely machinery in place) is easy, but the final 50% is really, really difficult.
And soon initial depositors will start to become restless. Delivery has shifted back three years already and honestly, there's no sign of the machine flying or the fantasy build volume being acheived.
(It probably doesn't help that if you do a Google search for Hill HX 50, this thread appears on page 1!)
I guess, in fairness, the Bell 525 and AW609 are not exactly hitting their predicted targets either!
The following users liked this post:
I agree, and I can agree with with some of what was said by both camps previously. Is there some optimism in the delivery, possibly, but I have seen this with almost every aircraft manufacturer before Hill. In my mind, that's OK, I'll fly what I have in the meantime. To wait a little longer to get the bugs worked out is quite "all right" to me.
To address an earlier comment regarding the insinuation that Jason should have taken an existing Jet Turbine engine and stuffed it under the hood may have been an option, but to achieve the aerodynamics (engine positioning) and cost range, that wasn't achievable. I always tell skeptics that my Rolls Royce in my 407 was designed in a smoke-filled room with overflowing ashtrays while engineers gripped their slide rulers to calculate dimensions. I don't believe that the creation of a new engine is so 'genius' anymore. It does take some skillset, but in reality, it isn't splitting an atom.
The following users liked this post:
Hughes500
You said previously "A gas turbine is not rocket science, it is a simple engine and been around 60 years !"
It may be simple but progress seems to be very slow.
You said previously "A gas turbine is not rocket science, it is a simple engine and been around 60 years !"
It may be simple but progress seems to be very slow.
The following users liked this post:
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 433 Likes
on
228 Posts
The following users liked this post:
It's not just designing a new engine, it's manufacturing one. Everything has to be done VERY precisely, including the metallurgy. I understand why he's trying for maximum vertical integration but I worry the engine will kill the entire project. I think he should have commissioned a custom engine from an existing engine manufacturer, like Robinson did with the RR300 (it was not off-the-shelf; it was made specifically for the R66), which has a high cost but is low-risk because they already know how to make engines and have all the hard stuff done already.
The following users liked this post:
there were a lot of direct questions at this weeks AMA about the timelines and production volumes. As more people put down deposits (now around 1300), Hill are being held more and more accountable. As they should be. The forgiveness for missing stated deadlines seems to be wearing off
It's not just designing a new engine, it's manufacturing one. Everything has to be done VERY precisely, including the metallurgy. I understand why he's trying for maximum vertical integration but I worry the engine will kill the entire project. I think he should have commissioned a custom engine from an existing engine manufacturer, like Robinson did with the RR300 (it was not off-the-shelf; it was made specifically for the R66), which has a high cost but is low-risk because they already know how to make engines and have all the hard stuff done already.
We have seen the airframe, we have seen the transmission, we have seen the rotor head I think the confidence factor on that is passing even though the last 10% will take 90% of the effort.
it reminds me what the sponsor said to Tiger Woods when he had reputation troubles: they said "just win and everything will be forgiven"
Same for Hill "just make it fly, make the engine work, and everything will be forgiven"
The following users liked this post:
All good points, I think no reputable engine supplier would engage working with Hill on a joint development, they have become more and more liability shy, and potential hungry.
We have seen the airframe, we have seen the transmission, we have seen the rotor head I think the confidence factor on that is passing even though the last 10% will take 90% of the effort.
it reminds me what the sponsor said to Tiger Woods when he had reputation troubles: they said "just win and everything will be forgiven"
Same for Hill "just make it fly, make the engine work, and everything will be forgiven"
We have seen the airframe, we have seen the transmission, we have seen the rotor head I think the confidence factor on that is passing even though the last 10% will take 90% of the effort.
it reminds me what the sponsor said to Tiger Woods when he had reputation troubles: they said "just win and everything will be forgiven"
Same for Hill "just make it fly, make the engine work, and everything will be forgiven"
there were a lot of direct questions at this weeks AMA about the timelines and production volumes. As more people put down deposits (now around 1300), Hill are being held more and more accountable. As they should be. The forgiveness for missing stated deadlines seems to be wearing off