Hill Helicopters HX50
They call it Aviation 2.0. Or is it Vertical integration? I am so confused
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A few days ago, they showed a test rig for a combustion chamber working; the combustion chamber was burning and doing its thing. So progress is being made.
But even if the engine and gearbox never appear, what is to stop Hill from buying and installing existing solutions for other manufacturers?
But even if the engine and gearbox never appear, what is to stop Hill from buying and installing existing solutions for other manufacturers?
Last edited by 212man; 1st Mar 2024 at 15:19.
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I don’t understand why they are trying to do this. Frank Whittle, with “Power jets”, got to a similar stage over eighty five years ago.
I assume Hill are doing this as Jason Hill doesn't want to source an engine from RR/Ariel/P&W etc, as that would cost too much and he would be beholden to another company, and the HX would then cost the same as a Bell 505, hence he wouldn't sell any.
I think that is clear, but surely they can buy some components, like fuel nozzles, COTS? OEMs do not manufacture every component in an aircraft/engine - they buy from third party suppliers (experts). Same as car OEMs - they use Bosch etc.
It is about IP.
Having worked in ths automotive supply chain it is very much the case that you do not supply or make anything that does not come either with its own set of drawings from the buyers or with a well documented licence from the IP owner. It is also wise to make sure that said drawings are not identical to a set from a different OEM.
So, if JH wants to use OTS components he will need to obtain the OK of the IP owners. That will come as part of a commercial transaction and the price to Hill will no doubt reflect the commercial advantages and perspective of the IP owner.
N
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It is about IP.
Having worked in ths automotive supply chain it is very much the case that you do not supply or make anything that does not come either with its own set of drawings from the buyers or with a well documented licence from the IP owner. It is also wise to make sure that said drawings are not identical to a set from a different OEM.
So, if JH wants to use OTS components he will need to obtain the OK of the IP owners. That will come as part of a commercial transaction and the price to Hill will no doubt reflect the commercial advantages and perspective of the IP owner.
N
Having worked in ths automotive supply chain it is very much the case that you do not supply or make anything that does not come either with its own set of drawings from the buyers or with a well documented licence from the IP owner. It is also wise to make sure that said drawings are not identical to a set from a different OEM.
So, if JH wants to use OTS components he will need to obtain the OK of the IP owners. That will come as part of a commercial transaction and the price to Hill will no doubt reflect the commercial advantages and perspective of the IP owner.
N
So, essentially, no further forward other than a shiny mock-up for HAI and burning fuel in a box. Wow I bet the OEMS are really shaking in their boots now.........
And they have re-invented the Gazelle frangible fairing for underneath the fenestron - absolutely cutting edge....
And you can fit 5 hours of fuel in the tanks to power the engine which isn't running yet so they have no idea about fuel burn......
Does it look nice? yes of course but there is a very long way to go and 2024 is passing quickly.
And they have re-invented the Gazelle frangible fairing for underneath the fenestron - absolutely cutting edge....
And you can fit 5 hours of fuel in the tanks to power the engine which isn't running yet so they have no idea about fuel burn......
Does it look nice? yes of course but there is a very long way to go and 2024 is passing quickly.
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Well the Safran guys can afford to take the piss as they severely take the piss on what they charge for their engines , spares etc etc
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Do the armchair experts here expect a fully assembled production engine without the individual steps required to build and test each part?
It seems blindingly obvious to me this is forward progress. This is to test and tune one small component which will go into the next full combustion rig, and so on. 🤦🏻♂️
Can we please go back to talking about technicalities rather than the endless loop of nonsense and slow claps. There was a great page a few back, where people were discussing actual technical stuff which was very interesting, rather than the usual trash talk.
It seems blindingly obvious to me this is forward progress. This is to test and tune one small component which will go into the next full combustion rig, and so on. 🤦🏻♂️
Can we please go back to talking about technicalities rather than the endless loop of nonsense and slow claps. There was a great page a few back, where people were discussing actual technical stuff which was very interesting, rather than the usual trash talk.
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Do the armchair experts here expect a fully assembled production engine without the individual steps required to build and test each part?
It seems blindingly obvious to me this is forward progress. This is to test and tune one small component which will go into the next full combustion rig, and so on. 🤦🏻♂️
Can we please go back to talking about technicalities rather than the endless loop of nonsense and slow claps. There was a great page a few back, where people were discussing actual technical stuff which was very interesting, rather than the usual trash talk.
It seems blindingly obvious to me this is forward progress. This is to test and tune one small component which will go into the next full combustion rig, and so on. 🤦🏻♂️
Can we please go back to talking about technicalities rather than the endless loop of nonsense and slow claps. There was a great page a few back, where people were discussing actual technical stuff which was very interesting, rather than the usual trash talk.
Testing and tuning the small components of the next combustion rig is great, and essential but needed to be happening much earlier if even the current planned flight dates are going to be met. There is also no allowance built in for discoveries. These will occur, and, at some point the whole flight test programme wil go TU because the engine, or the gearbox, or some other component that no one thought was hard to design or make, has popped up a surprise. That will do nowt for the project timescale either.
On the other hand, if Mr Hill had said ' I am going to assemble a team to design a great new helo from the skids/wheels up, build a new factory to make nearly every part of it and produce hundreds a year and it will all be ready when its ready and cost what it costs then' he would have had no customers.
N
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
So, essentially, no further forward other than a shiny mock-up for HAI and burning fuel in a box. Wow I bet the OEMS are really shaking in their boots now.........
And they have re-invented the Gazelle frangible fairing for underneath the fenestron - absolutely cutting edge....
And you can fit 5 hours of fuel in the tanks to power the engine which isn't running yet so they have no idea about fuel burn......
Does it look nice? yes of course but there is a very long way to go and 2024 is passing quickly.
And they have re-invented the Gazelle frangible fairing for underneath the fenestron - absolutely cutting edge....
And you can fit 5 hours of fuel in the tanks to power the engine which isn't running yet so they have no idea about fuel burn......
Does it look nice? yes of course but there is a very long way to go and 2024 is passing quickly.
I have just watched an early youtube video from Hill Helicopters from 3 years ago, where it is stated the engine is an extremely efficient engine consuming 34-35 gallons per hour (HX50 Behind the design)................................
What is fair value for complete working & proven motors with a supply chain and trained service agents? Seems to me we are focused on price but ignoring value.
I think it's safe to say that is what they would like to have. Since it's still not running, performance figures are unknown. Could it be met? I don't know, I'm not an engineer.
No, Safran are taking the piss. Recently had our Arrius 2F sent back for calendar life extension- charged us 75,000 EUR to inspect the engine, was returned back to us with a 2% drop on the power check. thanks Safran. A mate had his hot section replaced (timed out) on an AS350B2 3 years ago for $300k. Safran now charging him $650k for the same hot section on another B2 in his fleet just 3 years later. They literally have no competition (for eurocopter/airbus aircraft and now the 505) and therefore they can literally charge whatever they like. Given the majority of customers are either government or large organisations they just pay it. It's the private owner that gets smashed, and this is what is killing private helicopter ownership.
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No, Safran are taking the piss. Recently had our Arrius 2F sent back for calendar life extension- charged us 75,000 EUR to inspect the engine, was returned back to us with a 2% drop on the power check. thanks Safran. A mate had his hot section replaced (timed out) on an AS350B2 3 years ago for $300k. Safran now charging him $650k for the same hot section on another B2 in his fleet just 3 years later. They literally have no competition (for eurocopter/airbus aircraft and now the 505) and therefore they can literally charge whatever they like. Given the majority of customers are either government or large organisations they just pay it. It's the private owner that gets smashed, and this is what is killing private helicopter ownership.
I guess my point is having Safran or anyone else making motors is not a right. They do it because that is their business and they make money for the holders of the equity. If they don’t make money they stop. Then you don’t fly at all - or not with this motor. Aviation generally is the oddest combination of huge capital and if operating as a business usually a race to the bottom and thin margins. Maybe Safran started to work it out business wise and in the meantime provides a functional product.