Hill Helicopters HX50

[KiwiNedNZ]

what’s happened to the Kopter?

Its now called the AW09 built by Leonardo.

[Agile]

Originally Posted by PowerPedal

No, Safran are taking the piss. Recently had our Arrius 2F sent back for calendar life extension- charged us 75,000 EUR to inspect the engine, was returned back to us with a 2% drop on the power check. thanks Safran. A mate had his hot section replaced (timed out) on an AS350B2 3 years ago for $300k. Safran now charging him $650k for the same hot section on another B2 in his fleet just 3 years later. They literally have no competition (for eurocopter/airbus aircraft and now the 505) and therefore they can literally charge whatever they like. Given the majority of customers are either government or large organisations they just pay it. It's the private owner that gets smashed, and this is what is killing private helicopter ownership.

Yes:
Since the merging of Eurocopter with Airbus, it has been part of an obvious and expected strategy, to phase out the low end of the market (most private owners).
Goodby the EC120, and hello 5 blades upgrade kits for the H145. Since the merging of of Turbomeca with Safran, same idea more expensive service, more performance.
So why do people pay for it? because it makes sense in their value chain.

As the result, the value chain of the private owner and the small operator has been left in a vacuum. Thus the popularity of new players like Guimbal, Hill, Kopter..
I sometime wonder how much meat there is on that bone really, AW09 how long is that thing been on the development phase? is there enough potential sale to recover all that R&D.
The source of the helicopter industry cost structure handicap is the low volume potential against the development R&D cost.
Hill has fixed the volume issue, but has he fixed the development R&D cost problem?, I don't think so, not by redoing every single components.

Originally Posted by Bengo

There is also no allowance built in for discoveries. These will occur, and, at some point the whole flight test programme wil go TU because the engine, or the gearbox, or some other component that no one thought was hard to design or make, has popped up a surprise. That will do nowt for the project timescale either. N

Really agree with he above, I work in high end R&D, those "discoveries", how you handle them really separate the boys from the man. Regardless in all cases there is no going arround asking your client for more time (and more money ).
Look at what hapenned with Kopter/AW09, as smart as Martin Stucki was, AW took the SH09 and changed everything, engine, transmission, rotor head..., What hapenned they did not like it?, they had a surprise popping up?

Edit: SH09 first flew in 2014, 10year ago, HX50 is not flying yet

[wrench1]

People seem to forget the HX50 is an E/AB aircraft. The Guimbal, Kopter/AW09, and similar are not its competitor. The Safari, Mini-500, Hummingbird, and Mosquito are. Basically there is no competition. That is the draw to the HX50. If Hill pulls it off, it will change things on a number of levels.

[mechpowi]

Are there companies producing custom high end single crystal turbine blades for customers? I'm not an expert on manufacturing, but my understanding is that you can't just order or build a prdoduction line for that. Even if they can design competitive turbines and other high stress parts of the engine, how are they planing to produce those? How long took it China to figure that out with all the power they had available? Several decades at least.

If they try to go with something with lesser production requirements, they need to settle for lower temps with associated power and efficiency penalties, lower reliability and lower service life.

​​​


​​​​​

[PEASACAKE]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

So, essentially, no further forward other than a shiny mock-up for HAI and burning fuel in a box. Wow I bet the OEMS are really shaking in their boots now.........

And they have re-invented the Gazelle frangible fairing for underneath the fenestron - absolutely cutting edge....

And you can fit 5 hours of fuel in the tanks to power the engine which isn't running yet so they have no idea about fuel burn......

Does it look nice? yes of course but there is a very long way to go and 2024 is passing quickly.

At 35 gallons an hour the fuel tank must be at least 175 gallons capacity............if it has 5 hour duration. Now that is quite a large fuel tank(s).

[212man]

Originally Posted by PEASACAKE

At 35 gallons an hour the fuel tank must be at least 175 gallons capacity............if it has 5 hour duration. Now that is quite a large fuel tank(s).

almost half as big again as the EC130!

[hargreaves99]

Hill are going to make all the turbine blades themselves. Everything is going to be made in-house

Originally Posted by mechpowi

Are there companies producing custom high end single crystal turbine blades for customers? I'm not an expert on manufacturing, but my understanding is that you can't just order or build a prdoduction line for that. Even if they can design competitive turbines and other high stress parts of the engine, how are they planing to produce those? How long took it China to figure that out with all the power they had available? Several decades at least.

If they try to go with something with lesser production requirements, they need to settle for lower temps with associated power and efficiency penalties, lower reliability and lower service life.

​​​


​​​​​

[mechpowi]

Turbine blade manufacturing

So in addition to learnging to bulid a helicopter, they are planing to learn advanced metallyrgy. For me this has always seem to be by far the biggest challenge of manufacturing the HX50. (And not dicussed much in here.) They should be showing by now their production line and produced test pieces if they hope to have even a single turbine flying in the next five to ten years.

​​

[Phoinix]

It’s all fiction. Think of it as cryptocurrency. It came from early investments, was built entirely on hype, and will be sold as cryptocurrency—worthless in any practical sense, idiotic even, but it’s money. And money doesn’t stink. Some know that, and a lot of investors are actually crypto millionaires.

So, nobody cares about the materials, and their own fuel. Nobody cares if the engine will have any reliability. It’s hype only. Designed to be an eye catcher to lure in more investors. It’s a hands-on crypto and like with any crypto, the experienced ones will take the money from naive and hopeful individuals.

[Shagpile]

This thread sounds like the board room of VW when Tesla came onto the scene.

To answer the Q about turbine blades: they have been onto this for years now. One of the first things they did was pour the super-alloy into casts using inert gas environment (instead of vacuum) and send it off for analysis to prove out the concept. They've since done loads of casting trials using wax moulds & machining down the result & sending off for analysis. I can't find the video where they announced successfully done to spec, but here's one from 5 months ago discussing it whilst it was a work in progress:

You Tube

More on hot section manufacturing:

You Tube

Engine:

You Tube

Gears:

You Tube

Based on their ability to solve every problem encountered so far, I think it would be dumb to bet against this machine. As I've said before, I'm personally happy to wear some unknown unknown's to pop up & delay things here and there, and I think it'd be unrealistic to expect it to all go perfectly, but it's not 1950 any more trying to discover all this stuff for the first time, so none of this stuff is existential risk. You can hire the right grey hairs in who have done this before and solve each problem as they're encountered. He has about 1,300 orders now, so it doesn't really matter what the peanut gallery here think. The market has spoken - they want this, and they're prepared to pay up-front, and wait.

[Phoinix]

See what I mean they solved a problem they presented on youtube

[mechpowi]

Thank you Shagpile for the info. The first video shows that they do have a production line and samples coming out of it. That's a postive thing. I still don't buy much of that second video message, that tries to make one believe that manufacturing everything in house always results in cheaper and better parts.

[206 jock]

Originally Posted by Shagpile

This thread sounds like the board room of VW when Tesla came onto the scene.

Or does it sound like the sceptics who called out the promises of Onecoin, pointing out that it never even had a blockchain? Investors decided to overlook this in the hype - see how that ended.

No need to stick your bottom lip out, Shaggy. If the Hill thing works out, you can bask in the healthy glow of righteousness.

Do me a favour and answer one question though. You mention his '1300 orders'. Why are they still accepting orders? You can't possible believe the nonsense of them being able to build 500 per year anytime soon and when this thing flies, they will be able to charge double the price. Big red flag.

[hargreaves99]

1,300 orders x £50,000 deposit = £65 million

looks like this project has been a success for Hill, regardless of if anything ever flies

[admikar]

Originally Posted by Shagpile

This thread sounds like the board room of VW when Tesla came onto the scene.

To answer the Q about turbine blades: they have been onto this for years now. One of the first things they did was pour the super-alloy into casts using inert gas environment (instead of vacuum) and send it off for analysis to prove out the concept. They've since done loads of casting trials using wax moulds & machining down the result & sending off for analysis. I can't find the video where they announced successfully done to spec, but here's one from 5 months ago discussing it whilst it was a work in progress:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gvcZ9ncDPU

More on hot section manufacturing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD_Pv9sFWgo

Engine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3xplTpxXYk

Gears:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1bD5ttyA4c

Based on their ability to solve every problem encountered so far, I think it would be dumb to bet against this machine. As I've said before, I'm personally happy to wear some unknown unknown's to pop up & delay things here and there, and I think it'd be unrealistic to expect it to all go perfectly, but it's not 1950 any more trying to discover all this stuff for the first time, so none of this stuff is existential risk. You can hire the right grey hairs in who have done this before and solve each problem as they're encountered. He has about 1,300 orders now, so it doesn't really matter what the peanut gallery here think. The market has spoken - they want this, and they're prepared to pay up-front, and wait.

Great. How come they don't have a working engine yet?
Yes, this was meant as a direct poke at you. Hillivers tend to ignore the fact that almost no one said it won't ever fly, just that timeline, performance, price claimed is a bit out of touch with reality.
So far, we are correct on timeline. Price is so-so due to all the crap in the rest of the world. Performance remains to be seen.
So, your only measure of Hill's success is number of orders, not how many are flying trouble free? Dully noted.

[hargreaves99]

Hill currently advertising for 16 engineer positions.

---

OPEN POSITIONS

CHIEF COMPOSITES ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


HEAD OF APPROVALS, CERTIFICATION & AIRWORTHINESS
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


CHIEF AIRCRAFT ENGINEER (HX-HC50)
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


SENIOR MECHANICAL DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


COMPOSITES STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE AIR SYSTEMS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


MECHANICAL STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


COMPOSITES DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


THERMAL/FLUID SYSTEMS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


MECHANICAL DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


SENIOR COMPOSITES DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


EXPERIENCED COMPOSITES TECHNICIAN
Manufacturing
Rugeley, Staffordshire


AERODYNAMICS & CFD ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


CHIEF PROPULSION ENGINEER (GAS TURBINES)
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire

[RotorRick]

Anyone remember the Moller Sky Car?

'nuff said.

Rick

[admikar]

I do actually believe this will fly. In what form and with what specs is to be seen.

[206 jock]

Originally Posted by hargreaves99

Hill currently advertising for 16 engineer positions.

---

OPEN POSITIONS

CHIEF COMPOSITES ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


HEAD OF APPROVALS, CERTIFICATION & AIRWORTHINESS
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


CHIEF AIRCRAFT ENGINEER (HX-HC50)
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


SENIOR MECHANICAL DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


COMPOSITES STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE AIR SYSTEMS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


GAS TURBINE STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


MECHANICAL STRESS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


COMPOSITES DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


THERMAL/FLUID SYSTEMS ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


MECHANICAL DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


SENIOR COMPOSITES DESIGN ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


EXPERIENCED COMPOSITES TECHNICIAN
Manufacturing
Rugeley, Staffordshire


AERODYNAMICS & CFD ENGINEER
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire


CHIEF PROPULSION ENGINEER (GAS TURBINES)
Engineering
Rugeley, Staffordshire

I hear that Jason Hill has applied for every position and has managed to get every one 😄.

Seriously, a lot of very critical, specialist positions; with many featuring the word 'design'. For an aircraft that is due to fly this year and be delivered in 2025......

[Steve76]

This is the same play as the ICON A5 marketing/design strategy. Plenty of hype around changing the industry with revolutionary design that isn't really that revolutionary. The ICON was supposed to be the safest sport aircraft ever built, allegedly crash proof due to the benign stall characteristics and then it went out and killed a couple of people and .... well where is it now?
Hill's biggest problem is going to be all the doctors, accountants and other owners that need to physically work on their helicopter in the factory to be able to have it remain in the sport category. I can see that being a bit of a road block.
Other comments on the SH09 seen here. I know Martin well and after they sold out to AW, the design was forced to change due to the patent infringements. Same thing happened to BELL with the skids for the 429 etc. Hill will probably have AIRBUS on his case regarding the fenestron etc?