Hill Helicopters HX50
Originally Posted by [email protected]
What an utter load of cobblers - if I had paid the money up front I would be expecting a flying demonstrator by this stage not son et lumiere productions to manage expectations.
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More good news for Hill Helicopters! The accounts up to July 2022 have recently been published.
The bad news is that there are some really big numbers with brackets around them. Clearly not many new depositors in the 12 months under review.
The bad news is that there are some really big numbers with brackets around them. Clearly not many new depositors in the 12 months under review.
Last edited by 206 jock; 7th May 2023 at 07:42. Reason: Includes screenshot
I know it's hard to figure out the real state of a company from company accounts but....as they have taken 700 deposits, ie about £28 million.. it looks like they have £17 million in the bank, but owe people £29 million
I'm not sure what to make of that
I'm not sure what to make of that
Still amazed they list zero employees, that is an interesting business model.
While they aren't required to audit financials, it is a modest cost and would show a level of due diligence to potential investors and depositors.
While they aren't required to audit financials, it is a modest cost and would show a level of due diligence to potential investors and depositors.
As per last year, the devil is in the detail. There is reference in the accounts to the Group being the ultimate controlling company and has all the relevant figures but Hill Helicopters Ltd is where the action is. Clearly the balance sheet doesn't tell you that much but there are some notes in the accounts on how depositor cash is handled:
" The company has, as planned, recorded a loss before tax of £8.6m (2021 - £3.4m) after expensing its investment in development activities of £3.6m (2021 - £1.8m) and further design and development costs recharged from within the group of £5.0m (2021 - £1.Sm). During the period the total income generated in the form of deposits totalled £12.5m from 331 units. These deposits are currently held in deferred income on the balance sheet and will be realised on delivery in future periods. Since the balance sheet date (as at 28 February 2022) the directors have successfully secured further sales of 135 units (therefore total sales to date of 711 units). This has generated income in the form of deposits of £4.4m. The current total order book value for 711 units is £307.3mThe structure of the sale and purchase agreements and the timing of the deposits and payments is designed to generate sufficient cashflow for each phase of the design, development, production and delivery of the HX50/HC50 helicopter to market. The directors carefully monitor and manage cashflows to ensure liquidity at each phase.
In doing so, the directors have prepared cashflow forecasts, covering a period extending beyond 12 months from the date of approval of these financial statements, taking account of anticipated costs, expected revenues and funds raised. These forecasts demonstrate that the company can operate within the finance facilities available to it for a period of at least 12 months from the date of approval of these financial statements and therefore the directors consider it appropriate to prepare the company's financial statements on a going concern basis."
So the Depositors are treated as Creditors.
Further I think it's safe to assume that up to July 22 they had spent £12m on development. And there was £17m left, and they have taken another 135 deposits since then (I assume the reference to Balance sheet as at 28/2/22 is a mistake). So another £5.4m has gone into the pot. If we assume the cash burn remains the same (I would expect it to increase as the team gets bigger and more machines come on line), they will have used up c£6.5m since July 2022.
So the gamble is: will they get the aircraft developed and flying with c£16m of funding, unless they get even more deposits? I can see why they leave the order book open!
" The company has, as planned, recorded a loss before tax of £8.6m (2021 - £3.4m) after expensing its investment in development activities of £3.6m (2021 - £1.8m) and further design and development costs recharged from within the group of £5.0m (2021 - £1.Sm). During the period the total income generated in the form of deposits totalled £12.5m from 331 units. These deposits are currently held in deferred income on the balance sheet and will be realised on delivery in future periods. Since the balance sheet date (as at 28 February 2022) the directors have successfully secured further sales of 135 units (therefore total sales to date of 711 units). This has generated income in the form of deposits of £4.4m. The current total order book value for 711 units is £307.3mThe structure of the sale and purchase agreements and the timing of the deposits and payments is designed to generate sufficient cashflow for each phase of the design, development, production and delivery of the HX50/HC50 helicopter to market. The directors carefully monitor and manage cashflows to ensure liquidity at each phase.
In doing so, the directors have prepared cashflow forecasts, covering a period extending beyond 12 months from the date of approval of these financial statements, taking account of anticipated costs, expected revenues and funds raised. These forecasts demonstrate that the company can operate within the finance facilities available to it for a period of at least 12 months from the date of approval of these financial statements and therefore the directors consider it appropriate to prepare the company's financial statements on a going concern basis."
So the Depositors are treated as Creditors.
Further I think it's safe to assume that up to July 22 they had spent £12m on development. And there was £17m left, and they have taken another 135 deposits since then (I assume the reference to Balance sheet as at 28/2/22 is a mistake). So another £5.4m has gone into the pot. If we assume the cash burn remains the same (I would expect it to increase as the team gets bigger and more machines come on line), they will have used up c£6.5m since July 2022.
So the gamble is: will they get the aircraft developed and flying with c£16m of funding, unless they get even more deposits? I can see why they leave the order book open!
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Again, anyone considering putting money up front should look up the saga of Elio motors. I sincerely hope this isn’t history repeating itself. 
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So 6th & 7th December 2023 we see a "complete" helicopter, then they ship it out to HeliExpo 2024 in Los Angeles, and meet a lot of rich customer in CA.
How "complete" will that be? I know the airframe is on the way to being completed, big question, rotor head, blades and engine, will that be a vulgar mock up or finalized parts with test data.
How "complete" will that be? I know the airframe is on the way to being completed, big question, rotor head, blades and engine, will that be a vulgar mock up or finalized parts with test data.
- Windows: various production trials and tests around bonding and moulds for production quality transparencies.
- Lighting: front nose landing light cluster LED’s being developed using a lighting company. Edge signature light experiments.
- Cockpit: HMI trials to tweak final layout and ergonomics of control. Rapid prototype controls demonstrated.
- Fuselage Misc: begin of door trial work (watertight, handle feel etc) using the test fuselages.
- Digital cockpit (HDC): transfer of interface to onboard hardware ongoing. Ongoing work interfacing with remote mount radios/transponder etc.
- FADEC: control laws & algorithms/maths done. Written and integrated into simulator / HDC. Hardware being made. Demo’d on sim.
- Flight control software: stability augmentation and 4-axis autopilot algorithms being finalised.
- Engine: demo’d fully made prototype bladed disc (HP). Will be casted blades. Casting trials complete. More efficient than the blisk version + 5x life improvements. LP proto 1-2 weeks away. Many test engine components being produced. Demo’d quite a few finished components such as shafts with all couplings, seals etc. Design of engine close to finalised.
- Combustor: vibration mode analysis being finalised. Aerodynamics done. About 1 week away from design freeze & being able to start making annular combustor parts.
- StarterGenny: too hot at lower idle rpm, so requires change of cooling strategy to fuel cooling. Hardware design change done, awaiting power electronics.
- Upcoming engine test strategy discussed in detail. Essentially phased tests.
- Drivetrain: most proto components made. A few need to be remade due to some dimension changes. Demo’d spiral bevel gears, reduction gears, torque shaft, etc. Casings and bearings being produced. “Soft” proto versions used for lubrication trials, final fit/function trials. Hardened gears will be made soon for (5000h) endurance trials later this year. A couple of months until full drivetrain test ready parts made.
- Composites: tail assembly being made whilst simultaneously using/developing production techniques.
- Talked about the old gantry mill going at slow speed making some composite work difficult, trying to order a new one.
- Demo’d metallic inserts to show customers how components bolt onto the composite airframe (educational)
- lots more about composites and tail assembly and production processes, etc. Essentially how the prototype aircraft and production moulds and process will be different and in parallel.
Nothing on main rotor head, but has previously said that’s getting his current attention, but can’t discuss until IP of how it’s packaged tightly (so can be cowled). Previously has publicly said its elastomeric bearing semi rigid. Blades he’s only once briefly discussed and didn’t seem too worried.
Live AMA 24th May 1600h GMT. Meetup event early December.
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I wish they weren't trying to do everything themselves because I feel like the project is doomed because of that. He should have used a third-party engine at least for the first few years while developing their own, to get units out the door and get income / investments.
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I wish they weren't trying to do everything themselves because I feel like the project is doomed because of that. He should have used a third-party engine at least for the first few years while developing their own, to get units out the door and get income / investments.
I'm not missing that point, but the point is moot if the company goes bankrupt. You have to start simple and then expand. The original Tesla Roadster was a conversion of a Lotus Elise; Tesla bought from Lotus nearly fully complete Lotus Elises, without powertrain components but with just about everything else, and then they put in third-party batteries and other components to create their car. They used that income, and the additional investments they were able to get afterwards, to then create the fully Tesla-built Model S. If they had tried to start with the S then they would have gone bankrupt.
Hill should have started simpler using a third-party engine, and maybe even third-party avionics, even though that makes it more expensive, because that would massively reduce the development time and risk and allow them to start shipping units sooner, letting them get actual income as well as more investment when they prove they can create working helicopters. Then they can use that money and time to develop their own engine/avionics.
Nobody in the aviation world creates their own engines. Boeing does not, Airbus does not, Robinson does not, Cirrus does not, etc. It's crazy.
Hill should have started simpler using a third-party engine, and maybe even third-party avionics, even though that makes it more expensive, because that would massively reduce the development time and risk and allow them to start shipping units sooner, letting them get actual income as well as more investment when they prove they can create working helicopters. Then they can use that money and time to develop their own engine/avionics.
Nobody in the aviation world creates their own engines. Boeing does not, Airbus does not, Robinson does not, Cirrus does not, etc. It's crazy.