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Hill Helicopters HX50

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Hill Helicopters HX50

Old 30th Apr 2022, 20:51
  #441 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hughes500 View Post
Mee3
What utter bollocks. The US military paid for the development of both machines. Are you really telling me that a piece of garden mesh on a plastic frame is $ 15k. I get a blade on the same machine is the same price ! My neighbour used to make compressor wheels for RR 250. They cost a fraction and i mean a fraction of what RR charged them out . So it is possible to make a machine that doesnt cost the earth
What a stupid comparison. Do you think the sell price of anything in life is based on the cost of manufacture? Maybe pencils. Supply-demand. The large investment in R&D, to supply a small industry, and one which is not consumer/volume based.
An iphone costs $100 to make, if that.

It costs a truckload of cash to develop a safe machine which doesn’t cost much to make.




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Old 1st May 2022, 09:33
  #442 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Self loading bear View Post
What Musk delivers isn’t too bad.
Sometimes it needs to be reset during a trip but it stays on the road while you do that…..

oh wait…
Whilst a slightly tongue in cheek comment, let's not forget that Musk's other company makes human-rated spaceships ....

Quality is exactly what they choose it to be (i.e. what they think they need to do to produce something to a price point where it makes money).

Whilst I'm not 100% sold on Hill, don't underestimate the value of vertical integration, particularly in Aerospace - above example, see how much per kg the cost of an orbital launch has come down since SpaceX entered the market. A lot of that is due to vertical integration, only some of it is due to reusability.
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Old 1st May 2022, 10:52
  #443 (permalink)  
 
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Bell Ringer

No it doesnt, one is dealing with technology that is in most cases 50 years old plus. Now if one is building a new concept then I would agree with you. So how can for instance the PMA boys design and manufacture items for ones aircraft that are better quality, cost less and last longer than anything an OEM can make. To use the example of the MD inlet barrier mesh, it its cheaper to go to AFS filters and but a new dog house, 2 replaceable filter elements an emergency air door and a differential pressure switch cheaper than a mesh screen. Another example for you 2 of my customers a few years ago needed a new clutch in their 341's. one was on The Bosnian reg the other on the UK reg. Clutch for the Bosnian one £ 8k couldnt fit one overhauled in Bosnia to the UK one as no EASA Form 1. The clutch had to come from Airbus with a Form 1. Opened the box to find it had been overhauled in Bosnia, so all Airbus had done is put a piece of paper on it and charged almost £ 20k for the piece of paper. Now if Jason can bring sensible engineering practice to his machine you can see where the cost savings will be. Lets be honest all a helicopter is, is a blow torch turning a gearbox with some blades on it, it isnt rocket science
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Old 1st May 2022, 11:25
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Lets be honest all a helicopter is, is a blow torch turning a gearbox with some blades on it, it isnt rocket science
And if he were tweaking or upgrading existing designs I would tend to agree - but he isn't, he is creating new from the ground up which just cannot be cheap.
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Old 1st May 2022, 23:06
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If anyone thinks designing a helicopter from the ground up is straightforward; look no further than the numerous iterations and design revisions that the Kopter SH09 (recently re-branded AW009) has gone through - sure, it is being designed with CS-27 certification in mind, but the funding and work that has been piled into it shows that what works in theory for a helicopter usually needs more money and time than originally budgeted for, to work in practice. Best of luck to the Hill team and I hope that we see a flying prototype soon

Last edited by ApolloHeli; 3rd May 2022 at 22:43. Reason: typo
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Old 2nd May 2022, 13:14
  #446 (permalink)  
 
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Crab

Having had a reasonable insight and lent him a hand all he is doing is taking best practice from loads of different industries and putting them together with an eye to making the machine as light, slippery and practicable as one can get.
He spent ages going through and looking at the design of a 500 main rotor head as it is relatively simple with a strap pack enormously strong as has been proved over 50 years. Has decided, having seen the 342's fenestron to go down that avenue as it makes the aircraft quicker ). As for the body shell look what Bruno has done with the Cabri, he is passionate about making the aircraft as clean as possible to reduce drag and increase the speed as this obviously reduces the need to carry so much fuel and hence reduces power required.
Will he get there ? having seen behind the scenes and a few long chats with him i think he will. Yes there will be some problems, but he has taken the best part of 400 orders, bear in mind Airbus sold just over 500 EC120's ( rubbish machine ) in 25 years !!!
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Old 3rd May 2022, 12:25
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Originally Posted by ApolloHeli View Post
If anyone thinks designing a helicopter from the ground up is straightforward; look no further than the numerous iterations and design revisions that the Kopter SH09 (recently re-branded AW009) has gone through - sure, it is being designed with CS-25 certification in mind, but the funding and work that has been piled into it shows that what works in theory for a helicopter usually needs more money and time than originally budgeted for, to work in practice. Best of luck to the Hill team and I hope that we see a flying prototype soon
I think you mean CS-27 (Small rotorcraft). CS-25 is 'Large Aeroplanes
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Old 3rd May 2022, 20:56
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Deposits are non-refundable because they are really investments and you cannot refund investments. The company needs those for funding; they'll go bankrupt if people withdraw their deposits. I'm sure this is made clear to all investors.
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Old 4th May 2022, 17:51
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Originally Posted by CGameProgrammerr View Post
Deposits are non-refundable because they are really investments and you cannot refund investments. The company needs those for funding; they'll go bankrupt if people withdraw their deposits. I'm sure this is made clear to all investors.
Deposits for funding project development is fully understandable. Only reason why people would withdraw deposits is if Hill does not deliver on claimed performance/price. Since supporters are so adamant that he will and he promises that he will, why non-refundable?
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Old 4th May 2022, 19:19
  #450 (permalink)  
 
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Because that's not how people work - if they were refundable then he would get many more deposits and may spend that money, but then the flaky people will want to refund those deposits and he might not have the cash reserves to pay them, thus having to declare bankruptcy and liquidate the company. And people might refund deposits for any reason - they decide they want the money for themselves at that point, or a spouse dissuades them from buying a helicopter now, or they just get impatient and decide to buy another helicopter or retain their current one instead.
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Old 5th May 2022, 07:05
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He is essentially crowdfunding his R and D
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Old 5th May 2022, 07:17
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Originally Posted by CGameProgrammerr View Post
Because that's not how people work - if they were refundable then he would get many more deposits and may spend that money, but then the flaky people will want to refund those deposits and he might not have the cash reserves to pay them, thus having to declare bankruptcy and liquidate the company. And people might refund deposits for any reason - they decide they want the money for themselves at that point, or a spouse dissuades them from buying a helicopter now, or they just get impatient and decide to buy another helicopter or retain their current one instead.
Sorry, that's BS. Very easy to create a wait list, so if you pull out , the person below you jumps up the queue and you lose your place. Many pages ago I mentioned TVR (a UK car brand of sports cars 'resurrected' by some chancers).. I placed an order - with a refundable deposit - back in 2016 on the promise of delivery in 2018. There is still no sign of any new car and I pulled my deposit years ago. It was refunded in a few days.

Crab is 100% correct. Jason is using deposits to fund the development, together with an Innovate UK grant that he obtained.. If that's ok with potential buyers that's great, but it doesn't sit right with me so I will sit on the sidelines chewing popcorn. Watching with interest!
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Old 5th May 2022, 08:39
  #453 (permalink)  
 
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The big question is - what will the 'investors' do when Jason comes back to them to ask for more money?
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Old 5th May 2022, 10:55
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The big question is - what will the 'investors' do when Jason comes back to them to ask for more money?
Good question. If he has 450 orders at £100k a pop, he has £45m in non-refundable deposits. What percentage will Innovate UK match? Even if it's 50%, Jason will have £67m, which I don't think will be anywhere near enough to complete the programme.
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Old 5th May 2022, 11:20
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Originally Posted by toptobottom View Post
Good question. If he has 450 orders at £100k a pop, he has £45m in non-refundable deposits. What percentage will Innovate UK match? Even if it's 50%, Jason will have £67m, which I don't think will be anywhere near enough to complete the programme.
Hill received £1.4m from Innovate UK. https://app.dimensions.ai/details/grant/grant.8483424.

"This project will create growth and new jobs in the South-West". Interesting - I thought Rugeley was in the Midlands........still, what's a little white lie among friends, eh?

Anyway, good to know that the Allison 250 engine had an original (not achieved ) development budget of $6.4m. In the 1950s. https://verticalmag.com/features/the...enginethatdid/. Given inflation that's $63.2m in today's money. Just for the engine, that didn't work as originally designed. However, St Jason didn't sprinkle his magic pixie dust over it.

Still, we're all just being whingeing primadonnas,
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Old 5th May 2022, 11:30
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Still, we're all just being whingeing primadonnas,
apparently all that is required is blind faith and deep pockets.....
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Old 5th May 2022, 15:28
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I have a copy of the purchase agreement for the HC50. The deposit and payment, delivery etc is all explained in it. PM me and I can supply.
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Old 5th May 2022, 22:26
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Originally Posted by 206 jock View Post
Anyway, good to know that the Allison 250 engine had an original (not achieved ) development budget of $6.4m. In the 1950s. https://verticalmag.com/features/the...enginethatdid/. Given inflation that's $63.2m in today's money. Just for the engine, that didn't work as originally designed.
Everything costs money when you start from scratch. This isn't that. There are now hundreds of small gas turbine engines available to draw inspiration from, along with modern CAD techniques, improved metallurgy etc. Like Everything else it should get cheaper every year. Add the word "uncertified" and what Hill are trying to achieve suddenly becomes quite realistic.
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Old 6th May 2022, 09:05
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Has anyone talked to insurance companies regarding the underwriting of an uncertified helicopter that carries 5 people?
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Old 6th May 2022, 09:20
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Yes. He's sorted it.
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