Hill Helicopters HX50
Originally Posted by CRAN
Glassair, US manufacturer have been doing just this successfully for 15 years with their two weeks to taxi programme.
https://glasairaviation.com/sportsman/
https://glasairaviation.com/sportsman/
$50k fixed wing, rarely seen globally.
The US is also only a small part of a big, big market
No, you're way off. No idea where you're getting this imaginary $50k figure from but the BASE price of the Sportsman, with the two-week build option, is $245k. Options, especially avionics, can move that close to $300k.
51% owner-built rule
Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
most regulators won’t allow you to factory build an aircraft and call it experimental.
In any case, the concept of owner-built (and with it, the 51% rule) is not to improve the quality of the aircraft. Most owners rightfully are wary about their ability to do a good job (follow MojoGrip on youTube if in any doubt). Here we speak about the market of non type-certified aircraft (NTCA), often referred to and labelled as "experimental". In this segment, the "factory-built" option attracts a premium over kit aircraft, as they are deemed to be the safer option.
The 51% rule only has to do with transfer of product liability from the airframe manufacturer to the client who - as nominal builder - now carries this liability. It is the high risk of litigation in some countries that has driven the cost of manufacturer's liability insurance to astronomical heights. By transferring this liability to the end client, NTCA manufacturers save on insurance premiums and can keep prices for their aircraft low.
Now, we always "want to have our cake, and eat it". I agree that some of these factory-assist plans are obvious schemes trying to reap the benefits of (almost 100%) factory-built while at the same time allowing to claim that the aircraft was majority-built by the owner.
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Why not?
Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
How many home builders spend more than $600k on a kit?
Seems like a clever way to get a new machine to market in a commercially viable way to me, especially if certification likely to follow in due course, funded by sales of the ‘private’ version.
We’re currently building a kit car that will cost around GBP150k, but that’s a choice based around the experience of doing the build ourselves.
Surely most people, if they have the passion and desire to go flying can find 2 weeks to a) fulfill their dream of building a machine, or b) more likely fulfill the regulatory requirements to substantially build the machine (at least on paper).
It’s my understanding that a significant number of orders have been taken for this machine, and as an owner of a 2017 R66 flying about 60hrs a year I imagine I’m right in the cross hairs of the target market.
I shall watch the development of this helicopter with great interest, and will
most likely put down a deposit this year.
What the HX50 will do to residual values of mainstream single engine turbines remains to be seen, and that’s a concern to me as a decision well in advance of the vaunted Robinson 12 year overhaul period is going to be necessary.
Either way, Jason Hill seems credible to me, and whether successful or not he deserves huge credit for attempting to disrupt the profiteering norm in this uninnovative and completely non customer centric industry.
if he becomes a thorn in the side of mainstream manufacturers, they have only themselves to blame. A very complacent bunch.
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Originally Posted by FlimsyFan
I imagine there aren’t many out there at that price.
Seems like a clever way to get a new machine to market in a commercially viable way to me, especially if certification likely to follow in due course, funded by sales of the ‘private’ version.
We’re currently building a kit car that will cost around GBP150k, but that’s a choice based around the experience of doing the build ourselves.
Surely most people, if they have the passion and desire to go flying can find 2 weeks to a) fulfill their dream of building a machine, or b) more likely fulfill the regulatory requirements to substantially build the machine (at least on paper).
It’s my understanding that a significant number of orders have been taken for this machine, and as an owner of a 2017 R66 flying about 60hrs a year I imagine I’m right in the cross hairs of the target market.
I shall watch the development of this helicopter with great interest, and will
most likely put down a deposit this year.
What the HX50 will do to residual values of mainstream single engine turbines remains to be seen, and that’s a concern to me as a decision well in advance of the vaunted Robinson 12 year overhaul period is going to be necessary.
Either way, Jason Hill seems credible to me, and whether successful or not he deserves huge credit for attempting to disrupt the profiteering norm in this uninnovative and completely non customer centric industry.
if he becomes a thorn in the side of mainstream manufacturers, they have only themselves to blame. A very complacent bunch.
Seems like a clever way to get a new machine to market in a commercially viable way to me, especially if certification likely to follow in due course, funded by sales of the ‘private’ version.
We’re currently building a kit car that will cost around GBP150k, but that’s a choice based around the experience of doing the build ourselves.
Surely most people, if they have the passion and desire to go flying can find 2 weeks to a) fulfill their dream of building a machine, or b) more likely fulfill the regulatory requirements to substantially build the machine (at least on paper).
It’s my understanding that a significant number of orders have been taken for this machine, and as an owner of a 2017 R66 flying about 60hrs a year I imagine I’m right in the cross hairs of the target market.
I shall watch the development of this helicopter with great interest, and will
most likely put down a deposit this year.
What the HX50 will do to residual values of mainstream single engine turbines remains to be seen, and that’s a concern to me as a decision well in advance of the vaunted Robinson 12 year overhaul period is going to be necessary.
Either way, Jason Hill seems credible to me, and whether successful or not he deserves huge credit for attempting to disrupt the profiteering norm in this uninnovative and completely non customer centric industry.
if he becomes a thorn in the side of mainstream manufacturers, they have only themselves to blame. A very complacent bunch.
They received their 100th order just this past week. I was number 24 in mid-december. Not a bad sales record by any stretch of the imagination. As you stated, Jason Hill seems very credible to many. I think he pulled together a great marketing team combined with his knowledge and desire. Now we sit back and wait for the finished product.
Originally Posted by Jetexec
They received their 100th order just this past week. I was number 24 in mid-december. Not a bad sales record by any stretch of the imagination. As you stated, Jason Hill seems very credible to many. I think he pulled together a great marketing team combined with his knowledge and desire. Now we sit back and wait for the finished product.
So let me get this right: a Robinson R44 uses a legacy piston engine, has sold c6,400 units and base price is $500k.
A newcomer claims to have viable plans to bring to market a sexy looking 5 seat machine, powered by a brand new turbine engine, all new rotor systems, 2 axis autopilot etc etc, yet reckons he can make it work at $660k? The difference being that prospective buyers spend 2 weeks sat in the corner of a workshop while it's being built (presumably instagramming or TikToking away furiously). And that once these are flying around the excellent safety record will deliver him an easy route to certification?
Mr Hill may have an engineering brain the size of a planet. But the business plan has more holes in it than swiss cheese. IMHO obviously.
A newcomer claims to have viable plans to bring to market a sexy looking 5 seat machine, powered by a brand new turbine engine, all new rotor systems, 2 axis autopilot etc etc, yet reckons he can make it work at $660k? The difference being that prospective buyers spend 2 weeks sat in the corner of a workshop while it's being built (presumably instagramming or TikToking away furiously). And that once these are flying around the excellent safety record will deliver him an easy route to certification?
Mr Hill may have an engineering brain the size of a planet. But the business plan has more holes in it than swiss cheese. IMHO obviously.
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Mr Hill has an answer for every question bar one, and I am not sure his business case (taking money up front from the government then prospective customers) is that bad either
The one question he cant answer is 'show me an engine, show me a hull, show me an actual helicopter on your brand new production line'.
Until then it takes a massive leap of faith to hand over your deposit. I will wait until the tiktok guys have flown 100 hours, although I might then beat a path to Mr Hill's door.
The one question he cant answer is 'show me an engine, show me a hull, show me an actual helicopter on your brand new production line'.
Until then it takes a massive leap of faith to hand over your deposit. I will wait until the tiktok guys have flown 100 hours, although I might then beat a path to Mr Hill's door.
I put a deposit down for the 'new' TVR back in 2016, with a view to taking delivery in 2018. Gordon Murray, Cosworth... what's not to like?
Well as it turned out, quite a lot! The CEO talked a good job there too. And got some funding from the Welsh government.
If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Well as it turned out, quite a lot! The CEO talked a good job there too. And got some funding from the Welsh government.
If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
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Originally Posted by homonculus
Mr Hill has an answer for every question bar one, and I am not sure his business case (taking money up front from the government then prospective customers) is that bad either
The one question he cant answer is 'show me an engine, show me a hull, show me an actual helicopter on your brand new production line'.
Until then it takes a massive leap of faith to hand over your deposit. I will wait until the tiktok guys have flown 100 hours, although I might then beat a path to Mr Hill's door.
The one question he cant answer is 'show me an engine, show me a hull, show me an actual helicopter on your brand new production line'.
Until then it takes a massive leap of faith to hand over your deposit. I will wait until the tiktok guys have flown 100 hours, although I might then beat a path to Mr Hill's door.
Originally Posted by 206 jock
I put a deposit down for the 'new' TVR back in 2016, with a view to taking delivery in 2018. Gordon Murray, Cosworth... what's not to like?
Well as it turned out, quite a lot! The CEO talked a good job there too. And got some funding from the Welsh government.
If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Well as it turned out, quite a lot! The CEO talked a good job there too. And got some funding from the Welsh government.
If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
https://www.tvr.co.uk/noise/post/noi...ts-green-light
How many home builders spend more than $600k on a kit?
.
The words from his own mouth raise far more questions about costs - all his R and D is in house and so is all his manufacturing, that is expensive, very expensive with all the machines, tooling, facilities etc.
You need a big expensive autoclave just to make the fuselage parts let alone anything else.
Making his own engine using 'vast experience of the automotive trade' doesn't inspire confidence either - how many cars have gas turbines?
I'm sorry but I think this is a front-loaded con and I will be surprised if anyone gets what they have signed up for. Very happy to be proved wrong but I won't hold my breath.
You need a big expensive autoclave just to make the fuselage parts let alone anything else.
Making his own engine using 'vast experience of the automotive trade' doesn't inspire confidence either - how many cars have gas turbines?
I'm sorry but I think this is a front-loaded con and I will be surprised if anyone gets what they have signed up for. Very happy to be proved wrong but I won't hold my breath.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
The words from his own mouth raise far more questions about costs - all his R and D is in house and so is all his manufacturing, that is expensive, very expensive with all the machines, tooling, facilities etc.
You need a big expensive autoclave just to make the fuselage parts let alone anything else.
Making his own engine using 'vast experience of the automotive trade' doesn't inspire confidence either - how many cars have gas turbines?
I'm sorry but I think this is a front-loaded con and I will be surprised if anyone gets what they have signed up for. Very happy to be proved wrong but I won't hold my breath.
You need a big expensive autoclave just to make the fuselage parts let alone anything else.
Making his own engine using 'vast experience of the automotive trade' doesn't inspire confidence either - how many cars have gas turbines?
I'm sorry but I think this is a front-loaded con and I will be surprised if anyone gets what they have signed up for. Very happy to be proved wrong but I won't hold my breath.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
The words from his own mouth raise far more questions about costs - all his R and D is in house and so is all his manufacturing, that is expensive, very expensive with all the machines, tooling, facilities etc.
You need a big expensive autoclave just to make the fuselage parts let alone anything else.
Making his own engine using 'vast experience of the automotive trade' doesn't inspire confidence either - how many cars have gas turbines?
I'm sorry but I think this is a front-loaded con and I will be surprised if anyone gets what they have signed up for. Very happy to be proved wrong but I won't hold my breath.
You need a big expensive autoclave just to make the fuselage parts let alone anything else.
Making his own engine using 'vast experience of the automotive trade' doesn't inspire confidence either - how many cars have gas turbines?
I'm sorry but I think this is a front-loaded con and I will be surprised if anyone gets what they have signed up for. Very happy to be proved wrong but I won't hold my breath.
And the Innovate UK inspectors who authorised a £1M grant are wrong too??
So the hundred odd people who have had the private briefing and have put down deposits in the last month are all wrong?
And the Innovate UK inspectors who authorised a £1M grant are wrong too??
And the Innovate UK inspectors who authorised a £1M grant are wrong too??
I've had the personal briefing and while the pitch and Q&A were polished, I simply wasn't convinced enough to hand over a £100k non-refundable deposit; there are just too many doubts over all the claims - performance, running costs (purchase cost!), specs, etc. that were addressed with hopes and dreams, not products.
the laugh is you can make Rolls Royce compressor wheels for around hundred quid each, yet they become £ 2000 " to cover R and D" that was paid for by the US military in the 1960's. A gas turbine is very simple to build and actually cheap to build. It is just the manufacturers saying, oh its aviation so we will take the piss. As for safety compared to the car industry aviation is mickey mouse , just ask my QA manager who used to do it for JLR before as he says going into the dark ages on safety by working in aviation
So i dont see why he can build one, why does ne need his own autoclave unit ? Cabri didn't have their own to start with yet they can build a certified 2 seater for euro 300, make it a bit bigger with a gas turbine, Robinson did it with a certified RR 300 ( a slightly modified 250 ) on their 66
So i dont see why he can build one, why does ne need his own autoclave unit ? Cabri didn't have their own to start with yet they can build a certified 2 seater for euro 300, make it a bit bigger with a gas turbine, Robinson did it with a certified RR 300 ( a slightly modified 250 ) on their 66
Originally Posted by toptobottom
a £100k non-refundable deposit
I presume that Mr Hill has already got sufficient VC capital to get the first few airframes to market.
Hughes500 - he said all his build is in-house so yes, he does need his own equipment.
I am sure the actual manufacturing is straightforward once you have proved the design, got the tooling, sourced the raw materials and tested sufficient failure modes.
The £100K up front is enough of a question mark but non-refundable????? He saw you coming, the 100 who have invested.
I am sure the actual manufacturing is straightforward once you have proved the design, got the tooling, sourced the raw materials and tested sufficient failure modes.
The £100K up front is enough of a question mark but non-refundable????? He saw you coming, the 100 who have invested.
