EC135 hard landing Chicago Area July 7
From the Manual:
ENG OILP
Conditions/Indications
Affected engine oil pressure below minimum.
Procedure
1. Engine oil pressure indicator (VEMD) - If indication out of limit·
2. OEI flight condition
3. Affected engine
4. Single engine emergency shutdown
5. LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE
ENG OILP
Conditions/Indications
Affected engine oil pressure below minimum.
Procedure
1. Engine oil pressure indicator (VEMD) - If indication out of limit·
2. OEI flight condition
3. Affected engine
4. Single engine emergency shutdown
5. LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE
5. LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE
The landing site and duration of flight are at the discretion of the pilot. Extended flight beyond the nearest approved landing area where appropriate assistance can be expected is not recommended.
Could be a long way in some cases.
Of note in the 135 RFM -
Boldface letters on a grey background
immediate, when you have time, and that is after
flying the aircraft
correctly analysing the problem
checking double, you have your fingers on the right lever/swith
anything just done quickly, because you think you know whats going on, without confirming first, is another keychain to disaster....
If you're flying a twin helicopter - particularly single pilot - and at night - and you have a confirmed indication of low/no engine oil pressure, keep the ECL or RFM stowed where it is. You have important business to take care of. They are the immediate actions. Anticipate that engine without oil is going to kaboom itself within about 30 seconds if you don't take immediate corrective action. If it gets to kaboom state it might kaboom the other donk as well. Otherwise, no congratulations in order, you've turned a land as soon as practicable situation into a land immediately situation.
„Basic rules These procedures deal with common emergencies. The pilot may deviate from these procedures if judged necessary under the given circumstances (specific failure condition, outside factors, and type of terrain overflown).
Although the procedures contained in this section are considered the best available, the pilot’s sound judgement is of paramount importance when confronted with an emergency.
To assist the pilot during an inflight emergency, three basic rules have been established:
1. Maintain aircraft control
2. Analyse the situation
3. Take proper action“
And that’s exactly what I wrote.
We train engine failure before and after TDP/LDP, and before Decison TDP or after Decison LDP, we just land the bird and deal with the emergency when on ground, no need to spoil a landing looking inside what is going on.
Same approach after Decision TDP/before Decison LDP, fly the aircraft, after reaching Vtoss, positive rate of climb, clear of obstacles, stable OEI flight and flying the way, you can autorotate, in case the second donk goes, you start analyzing- and that may take some time, before we start with 3, take proper action....
And all that should take less than 30 seconds to accomplish once you're informed by the indicators the engine has no oil. Any deviation from that I hope you've had a bit of recent practice of engine off landings, and somewhere ample that is reasonably flat and obstacle free to aim for. There is virtually no room for pilot discretion or undue delay on this one. Some pilots might think about leaving an engine without oil at idle because they don't won't to lose the generator, particularly at night. Utter hogwash. An engine at idle without oil can kaboom itself and its off-sider just as readily as it can when at full noise. Just give it another 20 seconds or so and see. Now if it was an engine chip, pilot discretion might leave it running at idle and bring it up to full noise if you need it for landing. No problem. But an engine without oil you have no other choice, and time is absolutely of the essence.
Sorry gullibell,
forget about 30 sec to get things sorted out single pilot at night to have a stable ship and a path, which won‘t kill you in case the second one fails on you.
I think SASless, with his sim experience, could confirm, that correctly identifying what is going on and handling an emergency will take its time and that hastly actions will more often bring extra trouble while an concentrated approach step by step, according to the first sentences in the emergency section will keep you alive most times!
There might be the god blessed pilot with all the knowledge and skills, but most pilots out there are just humans with a certain mental capability, from which flying alone takes a considerable amount...
It‘s an eye opener, to jumpseat sim missions and watching, what your fellow pilots are actually missing, when put under stress.
And a master caution generates stress...
You can even whiteness the degraded pilots capabilities just listining to ATC on a sunny weekend, when pilots, making propper calls earlier, start to sputter, when it gets busy in the pattern or they get orders from a controlled Airport, which they aren’t accustomed to....
Don‘t tell me, pilots should be able to handle OEI flight conditions and shut down in 30 sec.
Thats just asking for trouble!
forget about 30 sec to get things sorted out single pilot at night to have a stable ship and a path, which won‘t kill you in case the second one fails on you.
I think SASless, with his sim experience, could confirm, that correctly identifying what is going on and handling an emergency will take its time and that hastly actions will more often bring extra trouble while an concentrated approach step by step, according to the first sentences in the emergency section will keep you alive most times!
There might be the god blessed pilot with all the knowledge and skills, but most pilots out there are just humans with a certain mental capability, from which flying alone takes a considerable amount...
It‘s an eye opener, to jumpseat sim missions and watching, what your fellow pilots are actually missing, when put under stress.
And a master caution generates stress...
You can even whiteness the degraded pilots capabilities just listining to ATC on a sunny weekend, when pilots, making propper calls earlier, start to sputter, when it gets busy in the pattern or they get orders from a controlled Airport, which they aren’t accustomed to....
Don‘t tell me, pilots should be able to handle OEI flight conditions and shut down in 30 sec.
Thats just asking for trouble!
Before you start reading this....start your Timer.....and at the end of it....check how long it takes you to read this post.
A couple of observations.
Gullibell is very secure in his opinions it appears.
He has arrived at some of those by means of a 30 Seconds of low or zero Oil Pressure and a Turbine Engine goes "Kaboom".
He appears to reckon that Peter Pilot must "Immediately" react to the first perceived indication there might be such a loss of Pressure or lack of pressure to avoid the "KaBoom".
Now....if he would be so kind to enlighten us on the factual basis for the 30 Second interval between first notice of the lack or or loss of Oil Pressure and the "KaBoom"....it would help us to understand his pedantic claim for the need for "Immediate" action.
Then....I would like to know what his definition of "Immediate Action" is.
Likewise....his explaining the definition of "Immediate" in the context of this discussion would be helpful to the rest of us.
Additionally, I would like to hear his Dissertation on the various outcomes of lubrication system failures in modern twin engine helicopters explaining the full range of causes and ramifications of actual loss or lack of adequate lubrication as compared to spurious indications.
So....please do hold forth Old Fellow and enlighten us please.
Fifty Seconds is a very long time according to Gullibell......how long did it take you to read this Post?
I wonder if I ever had him as a Student in one of my Sim's.....I am thinking not based upon his posts so far.
A couple of observations.
Gullibell is very secure in his opinions it appears.
He has arrived at some of those by means of a 30 Seconds of low or zero Oil Pressure and a Turbine Engine goes "Kaboom".
He appears to reckon that Peter Pilot must "Immediately" react to the first perceived indication there might be such a loss of Pressure or lack of pressure to avoid the "KaBoom".
Now....if he would be so kind to enlighten us on the factual basis for the 30 Second interval between first notice of the lack or or loss of Oil Pressure and the "KaBoom"....it would help us to understand his pedantic claim for the need for "Immediate" action.
Then....I would like to know what his definition of "Immediate Action" is.
Likewise....his explaining the definition of "Immediate" in the context of this discussion would be helpful to the rest of us.
Additionally, I would like to hear his Dissertation on the various outcomes of lubrication system failures in modern twin engine helicopters explaining the full range of causes and ramifications of actual loss or lack of adequate lubrication as compared to spurious indications.
So....please do hold forth Old Fellow and enlighten us please.
Fifty Seconds is a very long time according to Gullibell......how long did it take you to read this Post?
I wonder if I ever had him as a Student in one of my Sim's.....I am thinking not based upon his posts so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyting [img]images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/img]
From the Manual:
That is your post number 41.....Where is the word "Immediate" other than in your part of the post?
Care to explain what it means by "emergency engine shutdown" as compared to "normal engine shutdown"?
Where do you get any suggestion of an "urgent" requirement from that quote from the RFM you were provided?
Originally Posted by Flyting [img]images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/img]
From the Manual:
ENG OILP
Conditions/Indications
Affected engine oil pressure below minimum.
Procedure
1. Engine oil pressure indicator (VEMD) - If indication out of limit·
2. OEI flight condition
3. Affected engine
4. Single engine emergency shutdown
5. LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE
EXACTLY...that is the list of immediate actions. There can be no arguing with that.
Conditions/Indications
Affected engine oil pressure below minimum.
Procedure
1. Engine oil pressure indicator (VEMD) - If indication out of limit·
2. OEI flight condition
3. Affected engine
4. Single engine emergency shutdown
5. LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE
EXACTLY...that is the list of immediate actions. There can be no arguing with that.
Care to explain what it means by "emergency engine shutdown" as compared to "normal engine shutdown"?
Where do you get any suggestion of an "urgent" requirement from that quote from the RFM you were provided?
Hmm,
I only had a go with the EC135 at the FNPT (Sim with vision but no movement) for my CRM - course, so I have to look to find a copy of the RFM EC135
but on the RFM, same manufacturer but different models, the bold face for ENG OIL pressure low is only
establish OEI flight conditions
everything after that ist just plain text....
And, depending on the flight conditions (I.e. HOGE - fly away), even after an engine failure, the manufacturer provides 2 ½ minutes power to establish OEI flight conditions.... and from the manufacturer approved flight instructors/examiner teach, to use the time (and power) available, to get to a save speed/height before further identifing and dealing with the emergency.
Also, you get an Oil pressure warning before all oil ist lost, so GulliBells Kaboom might take considerably longer.
I was trained with the forces, with all the bold faces by heart and fast response to emergencies.
And it took time, to adopt to the new philosophy, to calm things down as long, as you ˋre not plummeting out of the sky, so you wonˋt miss nitty kritty important bits.
But out of experience I have to say, the later is the better approach to emergencies.
I only had a go with the EC135 at the FNPT (Sim with vision but no movement) for my CRM - course, so I have to look to find a copy of the RFM EC135
but on the RFM, same manufacturer but different models, the bold face for ENG OIL pressure low is only
establish OEI flight conditions
everything after that ist just plain text....
And, depending on the flight conditions (I.e. HOGE - fly away), even after an engine failure, the manufacturer provides 2 ½ minutes power to establish OEI flight conditions.... and from the manufacturer approved flight instructors/examiner teach, to use the time (and power) available, to get to a save speed/height before further identifing and dealing with the emergency.
Also, you get an Oil pressure warning before all oil ist lost, so GulliBells Kaboom might take considerably longer.
I was trained with the forces, with all the bold faces by heart and fast response to emergencies.
And it took time, to adopt to the new philosophy, to calm things down as long, as you ˋre not plummeting out of the sky, so you wonˋt miss nitty kritty important bits.
But out of experience I have to say, the later is the better approach to emergencies.
Of interest on the PWC 200 B versions there is NO oil pressure until ~45% N1.
The "B" versions (AH) have "regulated" oil pressure that stays pretty constant and the "C" (Leonardo) versions effectively don't - oil pressure goes up and down with N1 and temperature and the instrumentation accounts for it.
The Leo "C" version works OK until you have a duff thermo-valve.
If there is no oil visible in the engine sight glass you start the engine and if you have no oil pressure you need to put some oil in it!! It is possible for the oil to drain into the RGB after a period of standing and overfilling it is just as bad.
There is also no oil change period or requirement.
There is an issue with the PW206 that the oil filler cap is checked regularly for tight fit and not able to unlatch itself. There is a mod to fix this issue with a large ball valve in the filler neck but it is optional. If you leave the filler off or loose the engine oil WILL escape!!
On the CAD there are a lot of captions - ENG OIL TEMP isn't one of them because it doesn't exist! The OIL TEMP gauge is normally behind your left knee if you are tall! In particular ENG 2.
The "B" versions (AH) have "regulated" oil pressure that stays pretty constant and the "C" (Leonardo) versions effectively don't - oil pressure goes up and down with N1 and temperature and the instrumentation accounts for it.
The Leo "C" version works OK until you have a duff thermo-valve.
If there is no oil visible in the engine sight glass you start the engine and if you have no oil pressure you need to put some oil in it!! It is possible for the oil to drain into the RGB after a period of standing and overfilling it is just as bad.
There is also no oil change period or requirement.
There is an issue with the PW206 that the oil filler cap is checked regularly for tight fit and not able to unlatch itself. There is a mod to fix this issue with a large ball valve in the filler neck but it is optional. If you leave the filler off or loose the engine oil WILL escape!!
On the CAD there are a lot of captions - ENG OIL TEMP isn't one of them because it doesn't exist! The OIL TEMP gauge is normally behind your left knee if you are tall! In particular ENG 2.
RVDT,
Another interesting trait amongst those of us coming from very regimented environments is what I call “The Dipped Shoulder Syndrome”.
When the Master Caution illuminates....one of the four shoulders of the two Pilots “Dips” as he reaches for the Check List.
I prefer the Pilot(s) determine what Warning/Caution is being given....Reset the Master Caution....analyze the situation....rudely stated as THINK....then if necessary drag out the Checklist.....but do that while FLYING the machine.....and NAVIGATING.
A very few Emergencies require an immediate response while the vast majority do not.
The other sad thing I observed is far too many of us do not understand the effect of the controls on the control of the aircraft.....particularly during tail rotor problems.
One of the best best teaching Tools we had was the “Instant Reply” modes in the Sim and the Cockpit Video that recorded the pilot(s) conduct of the flight.
Done right the Sim is a very valuable learning device.
Another interesting trait amongst those of us coming from very regimented environments is what I call “The Dipped Shoulder Syndrome”.
When the Master Caution illuminates....one of the four shoulders of the two Pilots “Dips” as he reaches for the Check List.
I prefer the Pilot(s) determine what Warning/Caution is being given....Reset the Master Caution....analyze the situation....rudely stated as THINK....then if necessary drag out the Checklist.....but do that while FLYING the machine.....and NAVIGATING.
A very few Emergencies require an immediate response while the vast majority do not.
The other sad thing I observed is far too many of us do not understand the effect of the controls on the control of the aircraft.....particularly during tail rotor problems.
One of the best best teaching Tools we had was the “Instant Reply” modes in the Sim and the Cockpit Video that recorded the pilot(s) conduct of the flight.
Done right the Sim is a very valuable learning device.
I'm with Gullibell here - an engine failure and the pilot's handling of it doesn't need to be rushed - the engine has already died.
BUT - a loss of oil pressure in a previously healthy engine does need prompt action before a simple loss of oil turns into something much worse.
If you didn't see oil pressure indications during engine and rotor start, what would you do? Let it keep going and consult the checklist? Or shut it down pronto?
I doubt anyone would have any problem in immediate shutdown, even though you are safely on the ground. Why? Because you don't want to make things worse.
I know of at least 2 accidents caused by engines losing oil pressure and not being shut down quick enough - in both cases the explosive failure that followed took out hydraulics and fuel but fortunately not the other engine.
At the very least achieve safe OEI flight and get it to idle, then confirm you have more than one indication and shut it down.
BUT - a loss of oil pressure in a previously healthy engine does need prompt action before a simple loss of oil turns into something much worse.
If you didn't see oil pressure indications during engine and rotor start, what would you do? Let it keep going and consult the checklist? Or shut it down pronto?
I doubt anyone would have any problem in immediate shutdown, even though you are safely on the ground. Why? Because you don't want to make things worse.
I know of at least 2 accidents caused by engines losing oil pressure and not being shut down quick enough - in both cases the explosive failure that followed took out hydraulics and fuel but fortunately not the other engine.
At the very least achieve safe OEI flight and get it to idle, then confirm you have more than one indication and shut it down.
Define "Immediately" and "Prompt", please.
Folks keep using that word....Gulli said 30 seconds until an engine goes Kaboom but has not offered any basis for that.
No one is objecting to shutting an engine down if it is believed to be without adequate oil pressure or in fact has zero oil pressure.
The discussion is how does one determine if the indications are not spurious and how long do you allow to determine your plan of action prior to actually shutting down the ailing engine.
Explain your thinking about all that.
Folks keep using that word....Gulli said 30 seconds until an engine goes Kaboom but has not offered any basis for that.
No one is objecting to shutting an engine down if it is believed to be without adequate oil pressure or in fact has zero oil pressure.
The discussion is how does one determine if the indications are not spurious and how long do you allow to determine your plan of action prior to actually shutting down the ailing engine.
Explain your thinking about all that.
On a Lynx RR Gem engine, it was widely known that from the point the oil pressure went into the red (stepped gauge, red, amber green) the white metal bearings at the high speed input end would seize within 30 seconds followed by a loud bang as things went badly wrong.
Why anyone wants to keep an engine, that would be spinning at many thousands of rpm, going for any longer than it takes to confirm a double indication (gauge plus caption or noise) I really don't know - this has become a very semantic argument about definitions and exact timings. The quicker you act (once positively diagnosed and confirmed) the more likely you are to prevent further drama.
If you have a double indication, that should be enough to determine it isn't spurious and, even if it does somehow turn out to be, what is the drama with a precautionary shutdown of one engine in a twin?
If the oil light comes on in your car, how long do you keep driving it until you stop for a look? Do you assume it is spurious and then wonder why you end up with a garage bill for a new engine or rebuild?
Why anyone wants to keep an engine, that would be spinning at many thousands of rpm, going for any longer than it takes to confirm a double indication (gauge plus caption or noise) I really don't know - this has become a very semantic argument about definitions and exact timings. The quicker you act (once positively diagnosed and confirmed) the more likely you are to prevent further drama.
If you have a double indication, that should be enough to determine it isn't spurious and, even if it does somehow turn out to be, what is the drama with a precautionary shutdown of one engine in a twin?
If the oil light comes on in your car, how long do you keep driving it until you stop for a look? Do you assume it is spurious and then wonder why you end up with a garage bill for a new engine or rebuild?
So....if you were at a hover, two guys on the winch line, Pressure drops to zero and caution light illuminates....you hit the Red Button and cut the hoist wire, and immediately pull the Engine Lever to Stop....and shut the fuel cock to the affected engine?
That would be "Immediate" in my book.
Getting the guys at the cabin door....and transiting to Vbroc and establishing a positive rate of climb....then doing the Shutdown might work too....but is that "Immediate" enough for you?
This is not semantics....it is reality.
That would be "Immediate" in my book.
Getting the guys at the cabin door....and transiting to Vbroc and establishing a positive rate of climb....then doing the Shutdown might work too....but is that "Immediate" enough for you?
This is not semantics....it is reality.