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SAR S-92 Missing Ireland

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SAR S-92 Missing Ireland

Old 23rd Mar 2017, 22:59
  #461 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eyesee View Post
Just a thought !! Descending through 4000ft in marginal weather towards blacksod lighthouse in the black of night low cloud mist light rain on instruments and all going to plan...in the distance beam of light breaking through the cloud from the lighthouse (blackrock) thinking they are home start to concentrate on the approach and just take the eye of nav instruments as they becoming visual with their destination. .I've done it before in a fixed wing flying to harverard west in Wales 9nm out visual with the airport had been so paticular all the way across the water checking double checking dme vor GPS the lot ..seeing the airport in front of me took my eye off everything and ended up on finals for st David's military I'm not the first for this to happen ,commercial flights have done it too at other destinations...if I had of even glanced at my GPS dme I would of noticed immediately
Very sad to all involved hope they are recovered soon
@Eyesee
I take it you mean Haverfordwest?
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:03
  #462 (permalink)  
 
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First dives are planned from dawn on Friday on the wreckage of Rescue 116 off the north Mayo coast as the search continues for three missing Irish Coast Guard helicopter airmen.


The Navy divers working in pairs will have an eight-minute limit on the seabed
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dives-on-wreckage-to-begin-as-blacksod-search-continues-1.3022607
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:20
  #463 (permalink)  
 
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"Final reported altitude 220 ft".

"EGPWS database did not contain Blackrock".


This was just reported on PrimeTime on RTE television.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:21
  #464 (permalink)  
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It has just been stated on RTE's Primtime programme that the EGPWS database on R116 did NOT contain Blackrock, therefore it could not warn them about the imminent collision. Also that their last reported altitude was 220 ft..
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:23
  #465 (permalink)  
 
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Re "prime Time" at 220 feet approaching Blackrock,with 9nm to reach blacksod , doesn't add up
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:25
  #466 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ber Nooly View Post
It has just been stated on RTE's Primtime programme that the EGPWS database on R116 did NOT contain Blackrock, therefore it could not warn them about the imminent collision. Also that their last reported altitude was 220 ft..
Still should have shown up on the wx radar? That is shocking though, gobsmacked it wasn't in the database, sends shivers...
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:31
  #467 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by helicrazi View Post
Still should have shown up on the wx radar? That is shocking though, gobsmacked it wasn't in the database, sends shivers...
I'm not sure how terrain shows up on weather radar? I'm sure its returns must be different to those of water droplets, so if the radar is tuned to water is it possible that it may not show up terrain?
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:32
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Originally Posted by Ber Nooly View Post
I'm not sure how terrain shows up on weather radar? I'm sure its returns must be different to those of water droplets, so if the radar is tuned to water is it possible that it may not show up terrain?
It would have shown up
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:36
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Originally Posted by tenbyboy View Post
@Eyesee
I take it you mean Haverfordwest?
Sorry I do indeed 🖒
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:36
  #470 (permalink)  
 
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Can't talk for the aircraft in question here but any weather radar I've used over the years has done a good job at portraying significant terrain, most especially coastlines/islands.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 23:57
  #471 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Can't talk for the aircraft in question here but any weather radar I've used over the years has done a good job at portraying significant terrain, most especially coastlines/islands.
I wonder if a slightly downward radar tilt at such a low altitude would fail to pick up terrain until it was too late.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 00:02
  #472 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ber Nooly View Post
I wonder if a slightly downward radar tilt at such a low altitude would fail to pick up terrain until it was too late.
Why should it? Cumulu Granitus should give a very solid return, especially if they were below crest height (which would be the case at 220ft).
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 00:05
  #473 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by henra View Post
Why should it? Cumulu Granitus should give a very solid return, especially if they were below crest height (which would be the case at 220ft).
Because it would be scanning the sea surface just in front of the aircraft and not picking up distant targets.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 00:10
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Originally Posted by Ber Nooly View Post
Because it would be scanning the sea surface just in front of the aircraft and not picking up distant targets.
Unlikely that it would be so much swept that it wouldn't be able to see what's half a mile in front of it.
Somehow still unexplicable and very likely a very unfortunate chain of events/circumstances. Blackrock not potentially being in the EGPWS DB probably being one important factor
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 00:52
  #475 (permalink)  
 
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I do wish so many idiots would stop posting utter rubbish on this thread until we know what really happened. Even in the 1970s the weather radar we had would have picked up something like Blackrock even in Wx mode
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 01:01
  #476 (permalink)  
 
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What caused the crash of Rescue 116?

Katie Hannon has new information on the operation of the system designed to give the crew a final warning of an obstacle in their flight-path.
http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-extras-30003379/10703638/

(may need Irish IP/proxy to view)
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 01:12
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Just because Blackrock was not in R116's EGPWS database presumably that doesn't necessarily mean the crew did not know about it? The notion that they were therefore unaware of it doesn't fully explain things to me. If you didn't know about Blackrock (and assumed it was open sea) would you still pick that point to do a let down? And to 220ft? It is still a long way from Blacksod, and also not in the middle of open sea to the southeast. Furthermore if one assumes that they did pick that fairly random point, why do a tear drop pattern to return right to it after the first approach? But more importantly this location doesn't look a great one to me to use for a low level straight in approach over sea to Blacksod - there are uninhabited (unlit) islands pretty much en route to cross, 3 miles from Blacksod.

So just because Blackrock wasn't in the EGPWS database could it still have been in in the FMS database? If not, could they have been aware of Blackrock from charts and entered the coordinates manually in the nav database? And presumably, given a fairly long direct track to it, the coordinates were inputted to navigate to that point, even if they thought it was open sea not Blackrock. And finally, was Blackrock shown on the moving map display that they were presumably monitoring? For example, it is on a 1:500,000 moving map I use.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 01:27
  #478 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Red5ive View Post
Doesn't the RTE report assume all the Coastguard S92's have the same spec'

Is it strange that Sligo-based R118 helicopter had been tasked at 9.40pm on Monday night to go 241km west and
R116 left Dublin at 11.02pm.
Wouldn't that mean R116 was then about two hours twenty behind R118, if you assume about an hour to get to the west coast doing about 100kts.

Last edited by Red5ive; 24th Mar 2017 at 01:41.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 02:15
  #479 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Red5ive View Post
Doesn't the RTE report assume all the Coastguard S92's have the same spec'

Is it strange that Sligo-based R118 helicopter had been tasked at 9.40pm on Monday night to go 241km west and
R116 left Dublin at 11.02pm.
Wouldn't that mean R116 was then about two hours twenty behind R118, if you assume about an hour to get to the west coast doing about 100kts.
And nobody had any idea where it was when R116 turned around.
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Old 24th Mar 2017, 03:13
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Forgive me, a little off thread, but posted to address a statement made earlier by malabo.
I don't buy the "there but for the grace of god, everyone messes up sometime, etc" arguments. Operations procedures are meant to be boilerplate, to tolerate the "human errors" that can creep in.
In the course of observing 60 flights 899 deviations were observed, 194 in checklist use, 391 in monitoring, and 314 in primary procedures.

Precis
Checklists and monitoring are two essential defenses against equipment failures and pilot errors. Problems with checklist use and pilotsí failures to monitor adequately have a long history in aviation accidents. This study was conducted to explore why checklists and monitoring sometimes fail to catch errors and equipment malfunctions as intended. Flight crew procedures were observed from the cockpit jumpseat during normal airline operations in order to: 1) collect data on monitoring and checklist use in cockpit operations in typical flight conditions; 2) provide a plausible cognitive account of why deviations from formal checklist and monitoring procedures sometimes occur; 3) lay a foundation for identifying ways to reduce vulnerability to inadvertent checklist and monitoring errors; 4) compare checklist and monitoring execution in normal flights with performance issues uncovered in accident investigations; and 5) suggest ways to improve the effectiveness of checklists and monitoring. Cognitive explanations for deviations from prescribed procedures are provided, along with suggestions for countermeasures for vulnerability to error.
https://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/p...010-216396.pdf

malabo, you must be management given your statement.
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