SAR S-92 Missing Ireland
Joined: Dec 2013
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From: Norfolk
xny556
Sad to say, unthinking (or intentional) heroism has no place in corporate culture. You do it by the book. The rules are in place to guarantee the best possibility of a successful outcome without unduly risking the rescuers.
Break the rules and get away with it, you might be hailed as a hero and get a medal, if public acclaim prevents you from getting the sack first. Failure is not an option unless strictly within the rules!
Been there, done that. Got the scars to prove it.
Sad to say, unthinking (or intentional) heroism has no place in corporate culture. You do it by the book. The rules are in place to guarantee the best possibility of a successful outcome without unduly risking the rescuers.
Break the rules and get away with it, you might be hailed as a hero and get a medal, if public acclaim prevents you from getting the sack first. Failure is not an option unless strictly within the rules!
Been there, done that. Got the scars to prove it.
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: England
Gouli,
Heroism has no place in the corporate culture as some will take risks in pursuit of heroism which can end in a nice story if all goes well or end in disaster if not.
The crew have to decide whether taking a risk is worth it. Would you break the rules if someone's life depended on it, quite possibly, but would you do the same if it was just a broken arm, I would hope not.
With all that said there were no rules broken here.
Heroism has no place in the corporate culture as some will take risks in pursuit of heroism which can end in a nice story if all goes well or end in disaster if not.
The crew have to decide whether taking a risk is worth it. Would you break the rules if someone's life depended on it, quite possibly, but would you do the same if it was just a broken arm, I would hope not.
With all that said there were no rules broken here.
Joined: May 2002
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From: Downeast
if the aircraft had been a hundred yards or so left or right of the course they tracked, there is a distinct possibility that they would have passed Black Rock in complete ignorance of the danger it represented.
That is a bit harsh.....but had the Aircraft not hit the Rock and been destroyed....there would be no report and we would not be having this discussion.
Had the evasive maneuver been successful....there would probably have been an Incident Report of some kind and in all likelihood some soul searching by the Crew about how close they came to disaster.
We cannot think about what might have been.....as that is too late now.
Seeing a very honest inquiry into this tragedy that results in some serious Lessons Learned that work towards preventing similar events in the future is what matters now.
Otherwise....four very good People died for no good outcome.
We owe it to them to see that Review takes place.
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From: Wales
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Sasless - 
Joined: Apr 2017
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From: n/a
All air medical legs with crew are part 135
https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...ter-operations
Joined: May 2002
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From: Downeast
What provoked the change?
The many fatal crashes I noted in my post!
There were other changes that the FAA and EMS industry had to adopt after the NTSB and Media exposed the unsafe practices and patent violations of Part 135 by many EMS Operators.
Read the text you quoted....it clearly used the past tense.....but you missed that I guess!
The many fatal crashes I noted in my post!
There were other changes that the FAA and EMS industry had to adopt after the NTSB and Media exposed the unsafe practices and patent violations of Part 135 by many EMS Operators.
Read the text you quoted....it clearly used the past tense.....but you missed that I guess!
Joined: Nov 2009
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From: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
So does anyone have the detail of the Irish regulatory framework for SAR helicopters?
Where are the definitions of SAR flight, the triggers for implementation, the revised minima and so on?
Where are the definitions of SAR flight, the triggers for implementation, the revised minima and so on?
Joined: May 2003
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From: Cote d'Azur
Sec.17
Nothing in this Order shall be construed as preventing a departure from a provision of this Order including the Rules in the Schedule to this Order to such extent as may be necessary to avoid immediate danger.
Joined: Mar 2016
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From: N of 49th parallel
I don't think they have any obligation to make anything public, but stand to be corrected.
Joined: Apr 2017
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From: Ballydehob
[QUOTE=SASless;9749960]
"Was the aircraft VMC or IMC?
Was the operation (Ofshore of Blackrock to Blacksod) being done VMC or IMC?
What were the conditions when R-118 made an approach and landing to refuel at Blacksod?"
Belmullet Automatic Weather Station: 10 miles North of Blacksod,
1323 Vis 3.9 km Cloud 180m 8/8 Mist
1400 Vis 2.5 km Cloud 120m 8/8 Rain showers
1401 Vis 3.0 km Cloud 90m 8/8 Rain showers
1402 Vis 7.0 km Cloud 90m 3/8-900m 8/8 Rain
1403 Vis 4.7 km Cloud 1000m 8/8 Mist
"Was the aircraft VMC or IMC?
Was the operation (Ofshore of Blackrock to Blacksod) being done VMC or IMC?
What were the conditions when R-118 made an approach and landing to refuel at Blacksod?"
Belmullet Automatic Weather Station: 10 miles North of Blacksod,
1323 Vis 3.9 km Cloud 180m 8/8 Mist
1400 Vis 2.5 km Cloud 120m 8/8 Rain showers
1401 Vis 3.0 km Cloud 90m 8/8 Rain showers
1402 Vis 7.0 km Cloud 90m 3/8-900m 8/8 Rain
1403 Vis 4.7 km Cloud 1000m 8/8 Mist
Joined: May 2002
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From: Downeast
Elevation at Belmullet given as being 16.4 Feet.
Even at the best Visibility reported....of 7.0 km....I would have to assume there was no other surface lighting visible to the crew of 116 other than that of Blackrock.....assuming it was clear of Cloud.
Even at the best Visibility reported....of 7.0 km....I would have to assume there was no other surface lighting visible to the crew of 116 other than that of Blackrock.....assuming it was clear of Cloud.
Joined: Nov 2015
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From: Okanagan, B.C. Canada
Isn't it inconceivable that they could see the light and still hit the rock?
Can anyone venture an opinion of what happens to a stratified layer over ocean when a rock intrudes to 300 feet, and there are 20 knot gusting winds coming up the sides of the rock. The orographic effect needs a higher rise than that to be significant, or...? More of a mariner than aviator question, but can the weather be different in the area of the rock than it is a mile away over flat ocean?
How much cloud depth, i.e. ceiling lower than the light itself, will result in the light not being visible?
Joined: May 2002
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From: Wanaka, NZ
The light wouldn't be visible unless you were looking outside and saw it. They weren't expecting to see a lighthouse, and presumably the only person looking outside was the FLIR operator, who just happened to notice the rock, but with no mention of a lighthouse being planted on top of it. The cloud could be a pea-souper fog down to surface level and you should still be able to see the lighthouse light from a mile away through the fog and pitch blackness of the night.
Joined: Nov 2015
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From: Okanagan, B.C. Canada
The light wouldn't be visible unless you were looking outside and saw it. They weren't expecting to see a lighthouse, and presumably the only person looking outside was the FLIR operator, who just happened to notice the rock, but with no mention of a lighthouse being planted on top of it. The cloud could be a pea-souper fog down to surface level and you should still be able to see the lighthouse light from a mile away through the fog and pitch blackness of the night.
Joined: May 2002
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From: Wanaka, NZ
I've done enough flying around at night in the gloop in the vicinity of lighthouses to have a reasonable hunch that they should have seen the lighthouse light from about 1nm, if they were looking for it.
Joined: Apr 2017
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From: England
CNPC said "A lighthouse doesn't shine through fog."
Perhaps not in Canada but the loom of a light even in the worst conditions can be seen at night from a considerable distance .
PS - but only if someone is looking out of the window................
Perhaps not in Canada but the loom of a light even in the worst conditions can be seen at night from a considerable distance .
PS - but only if someone is looking out of the window................
Last edited by Georg1na; 26th April 2017 at 14:48.
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From: by the seaside
Cnpc...it can be very different a hundred meters away.
I've flown the mountains and cliffs in Ireland for twenty plus years...Initially in gliders and now paragliders.
The Dublin and Ulster gliding clubs run an expedition to Kerry in autumn.
I considered bailing out when ridge soaring east of mount Brandon when I was engulfed in orographic cloud...a sort of flash over effect. Unfortunately I had installed an ex RAF horizon with an inverta which wasn't the fastest gyroscope to erect. I used my gps to escape.
Another wave flight I decided to jump over the northern end of mount Brandon with an orographic cloud base of 1,000ft. The mountain is 3,000 ft plus.
I tracked around 12km along the face and about 1 km out to sea...the lift closer in was so strong that I was close to VNE even at 1 km.
After one pass the mountain and sea completely disappeared as an embedded storm passed through...
Because Ireland is stuck out into the Atlantic the weather changes extremely quickly and sometimes visciously.
As to the flow around and behind the light house it could be anything...I be seen a viscous cloud similar to a microburst impacting a road in the lee of one of the Canaries...The flow around cone shaped mountains isn't nice although I have managed to soar a couple and somewhere there is a video of flows around cones.
I've flown the mountains and cliffs in Ireland for twenty plus years...Initially in gliders and now paragliders.
The Dublin and Ulster gliding clubs run an expedition to Kerry in autumn.
I considered bailing out when ridge soaring east of mount Brandon when I was engulfed in orographic cloud...a sort of flash over effect. Unfortunately I had installed an ex RAF horizon with an inverta which wasn't the fastest gyroscope to erect. I used my gps to escape.
Another wave flight I decided to jump over the northern end of mount Brandon with an orographic cloud base of 1,000ft. The mountain is 3,000 ft plus.
I tracked around 12km along the face and about 1 km out to sea...the lift closer in was so strong that I was close to VNE even at 1 km.
After one pass the mountain and sea completely disappeared as an embedded storm passed through...
Because Ireland is stuck out into the Atlantic the weather changes extremely quickly and sometimes visciously.
As to the flow around and behind the light house it could be anything...I be seen a viscous cloud similar to a microburst impacting a road in the lee of one of the Canaries...The flow around cone shaped mountains isn't nice although I have managed to soar a couple and somewhere there is a video of flows around cones.
Joined: Nov 2015
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From: Okanagan, B.C. Canada
Cnpc...it can be very different a hundred meters away.
I've flown the mountains and cliffs in Ireland for twenty plus years...Initially in gliders and now paragliders.
The Dublin and Ulster gliding clubs run an expedition to Kerry in autumn.
I considered bailing out when ridge soaring east of mount Brandon when I was engulfed in orographic cloud...a sort of flash over effect. Unfortunately I had installed an ex RAF horizon with an inverta which wasn't the fastest gyroscope to erect. I used my gps to escape.
Another wave flight I decided to jump over the northern end of mount Brandon with an orographic cloud base of 1,000ft. The mountain is 3,000 ft plus.
I tracked around 12km along the face and about 1 km out to sea...the lift closer in was so strong that I was close to VNE even at 1 km.
After one pass the mountain and sea completely disappeared as an embedded storm passed through...
Because Ireland is stuck out into the Atlantic the weather changes extremely quickly and sometimes visciously.
As to the flow around and behind the light house it could be anything...I be seen a viscous cloud similar to a microburst impacting a road in the lee of one of the Canaries...The flow around cone shaped mountains isn't nice although I have managed to soar a couple and somewhere there is a video of flows around cones.
I've flown the mountains and cliffs in Ireland for twenty plus years...Initially in gliders and now paragliders.
The Dublin and Ulster gliding clubs run an expedition to Kerry in autumn.
I considered bailing out when ridge soaring east of mount Brandon when I was engulfed in orographic cloud...a sort of flash over effect. Unfortunately I had installed an ex RAF horizon with an inverta which wasn't the fastest gyroscope to erect. I used my gps to escape.
Another wave flight I decided to jump over the northern end of mount Brandon with an orographic cloud base of 1,000ft. The mountain is 3,000 ft plus.
I tracked around 12km along the face and about 1 km out to sea...the lift closer in was so strong that I was close to VNE even at 1 km.
After one pass the mountain and sea completely disappeared as an embedded storm passed through...
Because Ireland is stuck out into the Atlantic the weather changes extremely quickly and sometimes visciously.
As to the flow around and behind the light house it could be anything...I be seen a viscous cloud similar to a microburst impacting a road in the lee of one of the Canaries...The flow around cone shaped mountains isn't nice although I have managed to soar a couple and somewhere there is a video of flows around cones.
Assuming they were proceeding in low vis under a stratus layer with a base below the light, if the layer might have been disrupted in the immediate area of the rock with that southwest wind being forced up the cliff. And, if that might have given a glimpse of the light, or might have been what allowed the crewman to see the "island" at the last moment.
I think the aircraft would have been on the windward side in this scenario.
Anybody know if there is a recording of the IR camera gear?
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From: Canada
Are we now dancing around the maypole for the second or third time with folks posting questions that have already been asked and answered?
Understanding of course that many questions can not be answered because there are facts not in evidence.
Therefore there is a lot of, as usual in tragic cases like this, a lot of rumours, innuendos and hearsay.
Understanding of course that many questions can not be answered because there are facts not in evidence.
Therefore there is a lot of, as usual in tragic cases like this, a lot of rumours, innuendos and hearsay.