AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Wrong Town
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone who does not rely upon flying for your job John your attitude is somewhat skewed. When you have means and are not reliant on having to fly to get paid then it is very easy to bandy words about like grow a pair.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
satsuma
I am genuinely interested in flight safety. I have no doubt that all the professionals here are. However I just don't see how your Safety Management System will prevent pilots who are inexperienced, under-confident, or penniless, from being pressured by 'the man'! Nor discourage 'the man'!
I'm afraid it's just a non-starter!
We all need the best quality pilots available, to be flying aircraft. They are produced by quality training and quality experience. They USUALLY make the best decisions. Anyone putting themselves in a position where their training/experience is inadequate for the pressure they will encounter, needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
I'm afraid it's a truism that many of the best pilots I have come across are, if not bolshy, then certainly the people with rock solid bottom lines. A fair number (though tragically not all) of those appear to have reached a grand old age.
It's always down to individuals to know their personal limits. That is just as true for choice of employment as it is for pre-flight planning.
Sad but true!
I have no idea whatsoever if any of this had any influence at all in the accident being discussed.
I am genuinely interested in flight safety. I have no doubt that all the professionals here are. However I just don't see how your Safety Management System will prevent pilots who are inexperienced, under-confident, or penniless, from being pressured by 'the man'! Nor discourage 'the man'!
I'm afraid it's just a non-starter!
We all need the best quality pilots available, to be flying aircraft. They are produced by quality training and quality experience. They USUALLY make the best decisions. Anyone putting themselves in a position where their training/experience is inadequate for the pressure they will encounter, needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
I'm afraid it's a truism that many of the best pilots I have come across are, if not bolshy, then certainly the people with rock solid bottom lines. A fair number (though tragically not all) of those appear to have reached a grand old age.
It's always down to individuals to know their personal limits. That is just as true for choice of employment as it is for pre-flight planning.
Sad but true!
I have no idea whatsoever if any of this had any influence at all in the accident being discussed.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Satsuma, Sorry to disappoint you but I have no personal obligation to protect anyone except those affected directly by my own operation.
It really doesn't matter how many fluffy, fanciful words you might choose to lay down in a document if they are unenforceable.
It really doesn't matter how many fluffy, fanciful words you might choose to lay down in a document if they are unenforceable.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bering
Not all ex-mil people will have an army pension.
Many ex-mil pilots. Lyle easily have no ex-mil pension at all!
As for the others you mention. It's a very dangerous world out there. Know the limits of your abilities at all times! Or be prepared to accept the consequences.
Not all ex-mil people will have an army pension.
Many ex-mil pilots. Lyle easily have no ex-mil pension at all!
As for the others you mention. It's a very dangerous world out there. Know the limits of your abilities at all times! Or be prepared to accept the consequences.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ShyTorque
I was asked to expand upon a suggestion. I did just that. The alternative put forward seems to be something along the lines of grow some balls. A round of applause for that one. Very progressive.
I was asked to expand upon a suggestion. I did just that. The alternative put forward seems to be something along the lines of grow some balls. A round of applause for that one. Very progressive.
Carl's Funeral
Gents,
Just to bring this thread back to reality and to put a human face to what has happened.
Carl's funeral is at Christ Church, Meadows Avenue, Thornton on Tuesday April 1st
The service will commence at 1230hrs and will be followed by a committal at Carleton Crematorium at 1330 hrs.
There will be refreshments afterwards at The Castle Gardens, Carleton.
Family flowers only.
Anyone wishing to support the family's chosen charity, The NorthWest Air Ambulance, should send a donation to The Willows Funeral Home, 57 Fleetwood Road North, Thornton Cleveleys, FY5 4AB.
Lee's funeral is on the 2nd April. I will post details when I have them.
FNW
Just to bring this thread back to reality and to put a human face to what has happened.
Carl's funeral is at Christ Church, Meadows Avenue, Thornton on Tuesday April 1st
The service will commence at 1230hrs and will be followed by a committal at Carleton Crematorium at 1330 hrs.
There will be refreshments afterwards at The Castle Gardens, Carleton.
Family flowers only.
Anyone wishing to support the family's chosen charity, The NorthWest Air Ambulance, should send a donation to The Willows Funeral Home, 57 Fleetwood Road North, Thornton Cleveleys, FY5 4AB.
Lee's funeral is on the 2nd April. I will post details when I have them.
FNW
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Satsuma, I certainly never used that phrase.
The person who did would no doubt also be able to stick to his guns if challenged on an airmanship decision, so I see nothing to be concerned about there. That's the name of the game, like it or not. It's not a job for the faint hearted.
The person who did would no doubt also be able to stick to his guns if challenged on an airmanship decision, so I see nothing to be concerned about there. That's the name of the game, like it or not. It's not a job for the faint hearted.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Not sure what you mean by the status quo in this context but I am happy that my operation is run in a safe and controlled manner. If not I would change things until I felt that it was. I have the backing of my employer in that respect. Having said that, we are never complacent and review our operations on a continuous basis. Although we are not required to do so in law, we aim to operate broadly to standards required by regulations for public transport.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FNW has made the most eloquent contribution so far. I have been there too many times. Very well said.
Happy with the status quo?
Not necessarily. But nor do I think anything satsuma has suggested would have any influence whatsoever on any events we may be postulating. In reality, it will always come down to individual's decisions, and the quality of those calls. What else is there to say?
Non of which may be relevant to the accident we are discussing.
Happy with the status quo?
Not necessarily. But nor do I think anything satsuma has suggested would have any influence whatsoever on any events we may be postulating. In reality, it will always come down to individual's decisions, and the quality of those calls. What else is there to say?
Non of which may be relevant to the accident we are discussing.
Airworthiness Directive Link
Effective Date 24 March 2014
Some cases of dislodging of lower half scissor spherical bearings Part Number (P/N) 3G6230V00654 have been reported on in-service helicopters. These bearings are installed on main rotor (M/R) Rotating Scissors P/N 3G6230A00733.
As a result of the investigations accomplished by the supplier of the spherical bearings, it was determined that a quality issue might have affected the production of these bearings.
This condition, if not detected and corrected, could lead to loss of control of the helicopter.
To address this potential unsafe condition, AgustaWestland published Alert Bollettino Tecnico (BT) 139-368, providing inspection and replacement instructions.
For the reasons described above, this AD requires repetitive inspections of the M/R Rotating Scissors P/N 3G6230A00733 that have been manufactured or repaired by installing a potentially defective lower half scissor spherical bearing.
This AD also requires replacement of the affected spherical bearings or, as an alternative, replacement of the M/R Rotating Scissors with an affected bearing, which constitutes terminating action for the repetitive inspections required by this AD.
P1
Effective Date 24 March 2014
Some cases of dislodging of lower half scissor spherical bearings Part Number (P/N) 3G6230V00654 have been reported on in-service helicopters. These bearings are installed on main rotor (M/R) Rotating Scissors P/N 3G6230A00733.
As a result of the investigations accomplished by the supplier of the spherical bearings, it was determined that a quality issue might have affected the production of these bearings.
This condition, if not detected and corrected, could lead to loss of control of the helicopter.
To address this potential unsafe condition, AgustaWestland published Alert Bollettino Tecnico (BT) 139-368, providing inspection and replacement instructions.
For the reasons described above, this AD requires repetitive inspections of the M/R Rotating Scissors P/N 3G6230A00733 that have been manufactured or repaired by installing a potentially defective lower half scissor spherical bearing.
This AD also requires replacement of the affected spherical bearings or, as an alternative, replacement of the M/R Rotating Scissors with an affected bearing, which constitutes terminating action for the repetitive inspections required by this AD.
P1
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
satsuma
You asked: "Would you treat me differently if I wasn't? These are anonymous forums so stop being nosey."
That's a strange comment! Of course it's not a matter of treating YOU one way or any other, it's how I treat your comments. It is entirely reasonable for anyone to treat comments from those with direct experience of a topic with more significance than those who do not. I have no experience at all of aerial lifting work for example, so any comments from me would be likely to be of far less validity than those that do. And yes, I do have a lot of experience of corporate flying in IFR twins. From your evasive answer to my innocent question, I'm guessing you don't. But correct me if I'm wrong!
And regarding anonymity, I was only asking about your flying activities, not your name!
Your lobbying for your described SMS as a solution hasn't been received positively by any of the very experienced pilots here, but you seem to be reacting rather indignantly and petulantly to this.
You asked: "Would you treat me differently if I wasn't? These are anonymous forums so stop being nosey."
That's a strange comment! Of course it's not a matter of treating YOU one way or any other, it's how I treat your comments. It is entirely reasonable for anyone to treat comments from those with direct experience of a topic with more significance than those who do not. I have no experience at all of aerial lifting work for example, so any comments from me would be likely to be of far less validity than those that do. And yes, I do have a lot of experience of corporate flying in IFR twins. From your evasive answer to my innocent question, I'm guessing you don't. But correct me if I'm wrong!
And regarding anonymity, I was only asking about your flying activities, not your name!
Your lobbying for your described SMS as a solution hasn't been received positively by any of the very experienced pilots here, but you seem to be reacting rather indignantly and petulantly to this.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I await your better suggestion to the acknowledged problem of 'fly me or else'. I've enough flying experience to know when an inherent problem exists. Carry on regardless if you wish. We'll see how long it is before we're having the same discussion again. Signing off.
Last edited by satsuma; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:25.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Teddy, cot, different parts of the room.
The answer to the owner who says "Fly me or else" has been pointed out to you a number of times. While your intentions are honourable, the practicality of your solution is nil. The fly/no fly decision is always that of the aircraft commander, whatever any document might say.
The answer to the owner who says "Fly me or else" has been pointed out to you a number of times. While your intentions are honourable, the practicality of your solution is nil. The fly/no fly decision is always that of the aircraft commander, whatever any document might say.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ShyT;
Absolutely right. The name on the tech log carries everything.
Satsuma;
There is a requirement under Eu Ops for a "Corporate Operations Manual" which will set down minima etc and contain a very basic SMS. Personally I don't think it will give any protection for pilots working in the corporate field, just give the lawyers someone to sue if it all goes wrong and the pilot has stepped outside the manual under intense pressure. (lets face it not many of us would expect to be able to answer for our actions after such a situation anyway) I'm lucky I have AOC protection, but many don't and having worked in that situation I know how serious the pressure can be. ShyTorque has written a lot of sense in this thread, I have met him, know the equipment he flies and sometimes share a pilots' lounge with him and know how seriously he takes what he does. Both of us are old and ugly enough to really stand up for what we know is right. If the customer/owner is not prepared to listen there are plenty of people out there prepared to bite their tongues and take his money and hope. I won't operate using hope, but use the thousands of hours of experience and knowledge me and my colleagues have, as I wrote earlier, I am a professional adviser to my clients, just like their lawyers and accountants, if they won't listen then I won't take their money.
SND
Absolutely right. The name on the tech log carries everything.
Satsuma;
There is a requirement under Eu Ops for a "Corporate Operations Manual" which will set down minima etc and contain a very basic SMS. Personally I don't think it will give any protection for pilots working in the corporate field, just give the lawyers someone to sue if it all goes wrong and the pilot has stepped outside the manual under intense pressure. (lets face it not many of us would expect to be able to answer for our actions after such a situation anyway) I'm lucky I have AOC protection, but many don't and having worked in that situation I know how serious the pressure can be. ShyTorque has written a lot of sense in this thread, I have met him, know the equipment he flies and sometimes share a pilots' lounge with him and know how seriously he takes what he does. Both of us are old and ugly enough to really stand up for what we know is right. If the customer/owner is not prepared to listen there are plenty of people out there prepared to bite their tongues and take his money and hope. I won't operate using hope, but use the thousands of hours of experience and knowledge me and my colleagues have, as I wrote earlier, I am a professional adviser to my clients, just like their lawyers and accountants, if they won't listen then I won't take their money.
SND
Satsuma
As someone who can speak with experience on this subject... The answer to "Fly me or else!" is - "Else please".
It's what goes with the four stripes and the pay-cheque. If you have not got what it takes to say it then an SMS will do little to help you.
OH
As someone who can speak with experience on this subject... The answer to "Fly me or else!" is - "Else please".
It's what goes with the four stripes and the pay-cheque. If you have not got what it takes to say it then an SMS will do little to help you.
OH
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: N/A
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Some cases of dislodging of lower half scissor spherical bearings Part Number (P/N) 3G6230V00654 have been reported on in-service helicopters. These bearings are installed on main rotor (M/R) Rotating Scissors P/N 3G6230A00733.
As a result of the investigations accomplished by the supplier of the spherical bearings, it was determined that a quality issue might have affected the production of these bearings.
This condition, if not detected and corrected, could lead to loss of control of the helicopter."
OMG they're duplicating the scissors!! - one of the safest things around! now they too can be unreliable.
Simplex is good, duplex should be used with caution ( if ever ).
2 engines didn't help here..
As a result of the investigations accomplished by the supplier of the spherical bearings, it was determined that a quality issue might have affected the production of these bearings.
This condition, if not detected and corrected, could lead to loss of control of the helicopter."
OMG they're duplicating the scissors!! - one of the safest things around! now they too can be unreliable.
Simplex is good, duplex should be used with caution ( if ever ).
2 engines didn't help here..