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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

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Police helicopter crashes onto Glasgow pub

Old 24th May 2015, 16:41
  #2921 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
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Quote. By DrinkGirls.
"Many years ago, I had an engine run down at a very inopportune moment in a large military twin, the other engine was very slow to pick up, I was already autorotating into a winter North Sea. I managed to fly away from 200'asl. It was a very high workload situation."




It may be worth pointing out that once you enter autorotation it might appear the other engine is slow to pick up as there is no power requirement for it.
I am sure you are fully aware of this and just wanted to point out to those who have not experienced what you have, that pilots can believe the other engine is not available when it's sat there churning away waiting for the pilot to pull the lever and put it to good use.
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Old 24th May 2015, 17:59
  #2922 (permalink)  
 
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Yes Ennio....that is true, i will clarify that it's not about dumping the collective to enter an auto immediately.
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Old 24th May 2015, 19:30
  #2923 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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@Helilog56 - Porter is not totally wrong in saying, in modern twins you pull collective.
It depends on the situation and type flown.
Done it in the sim quite often - drop the Nr down to 330 (or just the low rpm warning coming on/off/on/off), with the remaining engine in Hi-Mode, later stages low mode)
Sometimes its the only way to get out a situation, if you want to fly and not crash into the trees.
But that is normaly done close to the ground, i.e. fly away after or before decision.
In cruise, depending on the height, you might also consider to gain altitude for the event of the other donk quitting - but you have to be quick to keep Nr then - probably have to flare to keep it while lowering the collective.
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Old 25th May 2015, 07:00
  #2924 (permalink)  
 
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Ennio, correct. The Nr dropped to min limits so autorotation was required, I didn't just do it because I felt like it. The aircraft was close to MAUM (full of cases of German Beer) I had 3 goes of gentle pulling before the other engine responded properly. The FCU was changed on the failed engine and the 'good' engine was airtested and eventually rejected. If I had crashed, I probably would have been ripped apart here for 'pilot error'.
The moral I am trying to get across is that there are always circumstances where people don't have the full story, but are prepared to judge fellow pilots without facts.
I am ALL for theories being voiced on PPRuNe, even if wrong, they may trigger a thought with someone and save lives. However I don't like people stating 'facts'. It WAS pilot error here????? They DID NOT autorotate at all??? It might be true, but YOU DONT KNOW, YOU JUST THINK
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Old 25th May 2015, 09:59
  #2925 (permalink)  

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Quite agree, we here have very few facts available, facts that will only be available to us once the final report comes out. What we do have however is an awful lot of 'shoulds', even with some of the released facts appearing to back up the shoulds, until the final report is issued we still only end up with shoulds, such as;

Should:
We all know the fuel system is designed so that No2 should run out of fuel first, once that engine has flamed out due to fuel starvation, No1 should have enough fuel remaining to run in theory for up to another two minutes.


Fact:
"It was found that the main fuel tank contained 76 kg of fuel, whilst the No 1 supply tank (left) contained 0.4 kg of fuel and the No 2 supply tank (right) was empty. It has also been confirmed, by examination and measurement of the internal design features, that this was the fuel disposition at the time of the accident."

"Preliminary analysis of the FADEC data indicates that the right engine flamed out, followed, a short time later, by the left engine also flaming out."


Just how long was that 'short time'?
Is that 0.4 kg remaining in the No1 supply tank possibly due to the change of attitude at the end of the powered approach, moving it to the rear of the supply tank away from the prime pump/fuel pick up, which pictorially is in the centre of the tank?


"This Special Bulletin contains facts which have been determined up to the time of issue. It is published to inform the aviation industry and the public of the general circumstances of accidents and serious incidents and should be regarded as tentative and subject to alteration or correction if additional evidence becomes available."

... so until we have the final report with the FADEC data and relative timings etc, we still end up with all those 'shoulds' and more questions.
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Old 25th May 2015, 10:03
  #2926 (permalink)  

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"Is that 0.4 kg remaining in the No1 supply tank possibly due to the change of attitude at the end of the powered approach, moving it to the rear of the supply tank away from the prime pump/fuel pick up, which pictorially is in the centre of the tank?"





With a more level approach, could the engine have continued to run long enough to make that landing?

Fuel consumption;
twin 3.5kg/min
single c.2kg/min = 1kg/30 secs = 0.33 kg 10 secs
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Old 25th May 2015, 10:59
  #2927 (permalink)  

 
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I don't fly this particular machine, but isn't that arrangement very similar to the Longranger where, if there is a blockage between the main and supply tanks, you would get an indication of low fuel yet with enough remaining on the fuel gauges?

Phil
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Old 25th May 2015, 20:08
  #2928 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Hi Paco,
to make things clearer for the ones not familiar with the EC135:







so with everything going according to plan, one should have an idea, where how much fuel is and if the supplys are going empty with fuel still in the main tank.
B U T ....
things can go wrong - and information gathering can be be difficult, when busy with other things....
Lets see, what the final findings are and what we can learn from that.
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Old 22nd Jul 2015, 21:47
  #2929 (permalink)  

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Anyone heard of any updates/releases?
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Old 23rd Jul 2015, 22:43
  #2930 (permalink)  
 
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When the report is fanally released I'm sure it'll have its own wings and we'll all know about it within minutes.
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Old 24th Jul 2015, 07:50
  #2931 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
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I'm told The Clutha re-opens to the public today. I suspect many a glass will be raised.
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Old 22nd Oct 2015, 17:02
  #2932 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
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The Tasking

I wonder if any consideration was given to tasking and the effects of fatigue?

The tragedy occurred not long after the machine was changed from having a solely Strathclyde responsibility to one covering the whole of Scotland.

Until that change took place, the machine & crew would have flown typical UK Police missions of relatively short duration, mainly less than one hour.

But the accident happened after a flight of well over two hours, and which ever way you cut the argument they would have been critically short of fuel - even if there was, as has been said some fuel remaining.

So could crew fatigue have affected the way the problem was managed?

I am sure that this aspect will have been considered, but if not why not?

This whole aspect of range effectiveness and mission duration has been sidelined since NPAS came to rule and must not be forgotten. And yes I do realise that the accident aircraft was not an NPAS machine and was operated on behalf of Police Scotland. But type duration applies both side of the border!

TF
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Old 22nd Oct 2015, 17:32
  #2933 (permalink)  
 
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A two hour mission tires you to the point you cannot properly function?

Crew of Three....even if Single Pilot....shared duties using CRM concepts unable to cope with a two hour mission?

I would look beyond the actual duration of the current mission and consider the entire Duty Period to the point they crashed and consider that as a more important concern than an actual single mission length.

Fatigue must be considered but we have to remember that is a function of several variables and each should be weighed in the evaluation of fatigue/crew rest factors.
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Old 22nd Oct 2015, 21:08
  #2934 (permalink)  
 
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Tigerfish,
Where'd you get the "Well over 2 hours" from??
Take off was 2045, crash was at 2222 - that's 1 hour and 37 mins.
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 04:42
  #2935 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
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Originally Posted by tigerfish
The tragedy occurred not long after the machine was changed from having a solely Strathclyde responsibility to one covering the whole of Scotland.
It may just be a case of people noticing the new arrival in their skies, but there was certainly a fair bit of online comment around then about the frequency of flights over Edinburgh. The suggestion was that the local officers were being given the opportunity to practice working with the helicopter.

As mentioned above though, prior to the formation of Police Scotland this aircraft serviced the Strathclyde region and the locals in Edinburgh were not used to it's presence which, by nature, is often noisey and at night...
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