AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
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FE Driver and P2K4 - If you're correct then that is awful.
However, you are both missing the point here. If Gullibell was bemoaning his fate and piggybacking this thread to bring his plight to the world that would be commendable and everyone would be sympathetic and supporting.
However, he actually thinks his operation (in so much as he describes it) may offer an alternative to the rest if us relying only on the statistic that (in so much as he claims) they have managed to avoid a ditching.
Having said that I still think there is some merit in the Shark idea. Does anyone know if mahoosive sharks can survive in the North Sea or would they need a survival suit???
I am still hoping he is a wind up merchant and I am not DB. I am Gullibell (Gulible) and have succumbed to a quality trolling.
DB
However, you are both missing the point here. If Gullibell was bemoaning his fate and piggybacking this thread to bring his plight to the world that would be commendable and everyone would be sympathetic and supporting.
However, he actually thinks his operation (in so much as he describes it) may offer an alternative to the rest if us relying only on the statistic that (in so much as he claims) they have managed to avoid a ditching.
Having said that I still think there is some merit in the Shark idea. Does anyone know if mahoosive sharks can survive in the North Sea or would they need a survival suit???
I am still hoping he is a wind up merchant and I am not DB. I am Gullibell (Gulible) and have succumbed to a quality trolling.
DB
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GULLIBELL
I can fly safely up a river in an EC225, 4 axis coupled at 30 feet and 30 knots.
I can monitor progress up the river using the TAWS display validated by Radar.
I can control all flight capture parameters with one finger.
If I suffer a systems failure that requires an immediate landing, or at my destination, I can ditch or land in Zero/Zero conditions, in whiteout, brownout or blackout, fully coupled, all the way to touchdown.
I think I would fare a lot better than you in your helicopter with it "Broken Bottom"
After arriving, unless I can prove to my Company and the regulator that my Operational Flight Plan was IAW my OM requirements I would expect to be relieved of Command.
I can fly safely up a river in an EC225, 4 axis coupled at 30 feet and 30 knots.
I can monitor progress up the river using the TAWS display validated by Radar.
I can control all flight capture parameters with one finger.
If I suffer a systems failure that requires an immediate landing, or at my destination, I can ditch or land in Zero/Zero conditions, in whiteout, brownout or blackout, fully coupled, all the way to touchdown.
I think I would fare a lot better than you in your helicopter with it "Broken Bottom"
After arriving, unless I can prove to my Company and the regulator that my Operational Flight Plan was IAW my OM requirements I would expect to be relieved of Command.
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I really enjoyed reading gulliBell's description of his New Zealand operations...and would love to hear more confirmation of operating conditions down under, Fareastdriver says he is probably describing the life of half the world's helicopter pilots! O my.
Going back to the Canadian AAIB report about the close call of the S-92A 200 nm east of St.John's, two conclusions seemed very significant:
11. "If flight crews do not receive recurrent training in unusual attitude recoveries, they are more likely to experience difficulties in recovering from unusual attitudes."
12. "If flight crew members are not trained to recognise and respond to subtle incapacitation, they may not have the confidence to take control from a more experienced pilot."
Shades of San Francisco, and the Bali splashdown!
Bondu pointed out that only good fortune prevented another CFIT.
Ernest K. Gann had something to say on this point in his book. Trouble is that so seldom one has enough time to say "I have control"
Of course the intrepid gulliBell of Down Under says that in his company "if the guy did something hairbrained, the other would surely wack him....."
Going back to the Canadian AAIB report about the close call of the S-92A 200 nm east of St.John's, two conclusions seemed very significant:
11. "If flight crews do not receive recurrent training in unusual attitude recoveries, they are more likely to experience difficulties in recovering from unusual attitudes."
12. "If flight crew members are not trained to recognise and respond to subtle incapacitation, they may not have the confidence to take control from a more experienced pilot."
Shades of San Francisco, and the Bali splashdown!
Bondu pointed out that only good fortune prevented another CFIT.
Ernest K. Gann had something to say on this point in his book. Trouble is that so seldom one has enough time to say "I have control"
Of course the intrepid gulliBell of Down Under says that in his company "if the guy did something hairbrained, the other would surely wack him....."
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What I'm saying is throwing more money at training and fancy helicopters might not be the solution....the Op I gave example too is perfectly safe, not because we have a $15m+ helicopter with all the bells and whilstles and simulator trained crews and the rest of it.
It does not matter how much experience the guys in the front have and how much they hit eachother. The fact that you believe that experience alone will prevent you from having a CFIT is scary. The fact that you think 3000hrs in an IFR machine is a lot and experienced is also scary. The fact that you think you are safe is borderline criminal.
Last edited by 26500lbs; 13th Sep 2013 at 11:00.
Mary,
I can assure you that gulliBell is most definitely NOT describing operations in New Zealand !
Water temperature of +28 degrees...somewhere much closer to the equator I expect!
Beware of the trolls!!
I can assure you that gulliBell is most definitely NOT describing operations in New Zealand !
Water temperature of +28 degrees...somewhere much closer to the equator I expect!
Beware of the trolls!!
Post 1664 by Brian Abraham holds so much truth and could be applied to a great many of our Offshore Operations in Third World Countries. Nigeria begins to ring a Bell unless there have been some extraordinary changes in the past couple of years.
Perhaps there have been some improvements in the Aircraft but the Weather has not changed and the ATC situation and weather reporting has not improved.
At least one of the maligned Operators will shut down operations due to lack of visiblilty in the Dusty Season from what I have heard.
But for decades....Bristow did exactly as Gullibell describes re VMC/IMC operations without reliable weather reporting, no alternate planning, and no Ground Based naviads or Radar Approach or Enroute services. Just climb into the world's oldest Bell 212's and off into the Rain, Fog, Clouds you went. Most of us Coffee Drinkers found a Seismic Line in the Mangroves and beat feet. The Tea Drinkers flogged out in the clag and hoped to find the rig using Radar. Finding the land based rigs on Radar was a bit harder and involved far more luck. MDA's were based upon how you felt that day. After the Nigerian CAA mandated GPS, we at least had a reliable way to fix a location once we had been there which made it far more likely we would find the landing site.
Despite that.....not a single confirmed case of CFIT. We lost several to mechanical/engineering failures, one to cutting down a set of wires, and one suicide, and of course the one Ditching. There remains the one 412 that disappeared on a Night Medical Flight.
One absolute....if you never lose sight of the ground...you never have to find it again which would eliminate a vast number of the Offshore CFIT events we do have.
Gulli has raised some issues that provoked some heated discussion.
He is not as far off the mark as some of you think....or wish that he was.
Perhaps there have been some improvements in the Aircraft but the Weather has not changed and the ATC situation and weather reporting has not improved.
At least one of the maligned Operators will shut down operations due to lack of visiblilty in the Dusty Season from what I have heard.
But for decades....Bristow did exactly as Gullibell describes re VMC/IMC operations without reliable weather reporting, no alternate planning, and no Ground Based naviads or Radar Approach or Enroute services. Just climb into the world's oldest Bell 212's and off into the Rain, Fog, Clouds you went. Most of us Coffee Drinkers found a Seismic Line in the Mangroves and beat feet. The Tea Drinkers flogged out in the clag and hoped to find the rig using Radar. Finding the land based rigs on Radar was a bit harder and involved far more luck. MDA's were based upon how you felt that day. After the Nigerian CAA mandated GPS, we at least had a reliable way to fix a location once we had been there which made it far more likely we would find the landing site.
Despite that.....not a single confirmed case of CFIT. We lost several to mechanical/engineering failures, one to cutting down a set of wires, and one suicide, and of course the one Ditching. There remains the one 412 that disappeared on a Night Medical Flight.
One absolute....if you never lose sight of the ground...you never have to find it again which would eliminate a vast number of the Offshore CFIT events we do have.
Gulli has raised some issues that provoked some heated discussion.
He is not as far off the mark as some of you think....or wish that he was.
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Who would you rather fly with?
I've been asking myself the question, who would I rather fly with:
gulliBell or the S92 pilot, details of whose incident is in post 1659?
Your thoughts on that one?
gulliBell or the S92 pilot, details of whose incident is in post 1659?
Your thoughts on that one?
What is the policy with NS operators regarding minimum experience levels?
In addition to the crew pairing policy in the Cougar Helicopters SOPs, all pilots must first be approved by the offshore operators before these pilots are permitted to fly their workers offshore. As part of the process, the offshore operators have established minimum requirements of 1000 flight hours on helicopters and a minimum of 250 flight hours of PIC time.
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Well said SAS, the point is the Bristow pilots in Nigeria (and World Wide for that matter) were real pilots and not system managers and could fly.
I was with Bristow for 34 years all over the world and until the arrival of OLOG was with the best company in the world. When we lost a Wessex and could not establish the reason we grounded the type although the Queen continued to fly in them for years afterwards so lets not hear anymore guff about standards.
In my time with the company I could count on one hand the pilots I was concerned about flying with in ANY conditions, from Greenland to Malaysia and Borneo and many countries in between including Zagross in Iran and Mogadishu during the UN fiasco. I shudder to think how some of the current crop would cope!! (I never worried about flying with you!)
I was with Bristow for 34 years all over the world and until the arrival of OLOG was with the best company in the world. When we lost a Wessex and could not establish the reason we grounded the type although the Queen continued to fly in them for years afterwards so lets not hear anymore guff about standards.
In my time with the company I could count on one hand the pilots I was concerned about flying with in ANY conditions, from Greenland to Malaysia and Borneo and many countries in between including Zagross in Iran and Mogadishu during the UN fiasco. I shudder to think how some of the current crop would cope!! (I never worried about flying with you!)
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Mtoroshanga, it is always interesting to hear from the "old and bold" who look back with nostalgia and rose tinted glasses, claiming they did it harder and better than anyone else.
There is no real place for this kind of Macho bull**** in this thread. It's serves no purpose other than to allow you to grandstand and gloat with a holier than thou type of attitude.
If all you can offer is a dissitation on how good your guys were we will sadly not really learn anything from you and that's a shame because with all that experience you must have learned something that might help!!
I have never worked with anyone I was not happy to fly with.
DB
There is no real place for this kind of Macho bull**** in this thread. It's serves no purpose other than to allow you to grandstand and gloat with a holier than thou type of attitude.
If all you can offer is a dissitation on how good your guys were we will sadly not really learn anything from you and that's a shame because with all that experience you must have learned something that might help!!
I have never worked with anyone I was not happy to fly with.
DB
Double Bogey - I find it interesting, if a little sad, that whenever an 'old n bold' pilot, or shall we call them a 'pre 4 axis fully coupled pilot' offers an opinion, helpful suggestion even (like I attempted) it is immediately derided by yourself and others who are understandably wholly committed (roger committed!) to the NS 'Airline' way of doing things. Rose tinted misted spectacles aside, there are other ways of flying a helicopter that are not acceptable to commercial operations like the one you are tied up in. But I can remember when NS operators would find a platform on radar and fly up the leg in fog - NO, I don't think that was a better way than the one you use now (but is that how the RM do it still?) but military pilots do all sorts of strange things that wouldn't be acceptable on the NS shuttles. It's not boasting, just a fact, why, even SH types don't always understand what SAR Buoy (wankers) get up to (unless it's all got incredibly pc since I retired) and I wouldn't have much of a clue about the Stan. I can fly on instruments, even had a proc IR courtesy of Aberdeen's Sim and would have loved to have the automation that you enjoy but it wasn't much use up a mountain, day or night. What I think various O+B people are trying to say is systems operating, whilst very important, isn't the whole story when it comes to helo flying. Maybe, just maybe, some other essentials have been lost along the way? Perhaps due to accountants who do not really understand aviation? 
Last edited by Al-bert; 13th Sep 2013 at 17:18.
Albert - the difference is the fact the NS have fare-paying passengers in the back who, quite rightly, demand levels of safety over and above what can be tolerated in the pursuit of a military goal or that required to save lives.
Gulibell's third-world approach to 'safe' operations is like so many things - it is behind the times because it is allowed to be whereas most first world operations actually have some regulation and safety standards applied to them.
I don't believe that there are a bunch of numpties in the NS who can't actually fly a helicopter or are too procedure-bound to use their captaincy and flying skills in the best interests of their passengers.
The operations in the NS clearly aren't perfect or the crashes wouldn't be happening but defining the root cause and therefore the solution seems to be problematical.
Gulibell's third-world approach to 'safe' operations is like so many things - it is behind the times because it is allowed to be whereas most first world operations actually have some regulation and safety standards applied to them.
I don't believe that there are a bunch of numpties in the NS who can't actually fly a helicopter or are too procedure-bound to use their captaincy and flying skills in the best interests of their passengers.
The operations in the NS clearly aren't perfect or the crashes wouldn't be happening but defining the root cause and therefore the solution seems to be problematical.
FFS Crab - I knew all that!!!
I wasn't saying "fly like SAR Sky God (JOKE! I say again Joke!) or you're a numptie"!!!
I understand the commercial reality too (I even have a BA(Econ)
) but if you listen very carefully (I will say dis only wanz) I think, just perhaps, that SOME skills are in danger of being lost, or not even developed in the 'straight through' co to capt scheme of things in the pursuit of savings. It is hard to see how to change this 'culture' but throwing increasing technology at the problem is not altogether successful is it? 
BTW I think prob Gulli is a wind up - a first class one though!
I wasn't saying "fly like SAR Sky God (JOKE! I say again Joke!) or you're a numptie"!!!
I understand the commercial reality too (I even have a BA(Econ)
) but if you listen very carefully (I will say dis only wanz) I think, just perhaps, that SOME skills are in danger of being lost, or not even developed in the 'straight through' co to capt scheme of things in the pursuit of savings. It is hard to see how to change this 'culture' but throwing increasing technology at the problem is not altogether successful is it? BTW I think prob Gulli is a wind up - a first class one though!
Last edited by Al-bert; 13th Sep 2013 at 19:36.
Thing about pPrune is - when you try to calm things down, you end up inflaming them, and when you try quoting observed fact, you are sure to be accused of making it up. Still, I want to nail this "we could fly in those days" vs "dinosaurs should know when they're extinct" digression.
I'm a sim instructor. Have been for years. FW and RW. Like the doctor, I've seen you all at your embarrassing worst and I've kept it to myself. Because when I was flying, I had bad days, too. People were screwing up on steam-driven old bangers long before they were screwing up on fancy full-colour, automated wizzocopters.
I have seen people so lacking in manual flying skills that the arrival of automation couldn't come too soon and I have seen people so baffled by the automation that they forgot to use their manual flying skills.
Only the detail of the problem has changed. The underlying issue is just the same. Familiarity with, expertise with, practice with, the equipment you are given to fly is what makes a professional, safe pilot. There are no prizes for guessing what I'm going to say next!
Where does that familiarity, that expertise, that practice come from?
TRAINING. And as much of it as you can get.
And don't tell me me about "real world" limitations. This thread is all about where that has got us.
Out.
I'm a sim instructor. Have been for years. FW and RW. Like the doctor, I've seen you all at your embarrassing worst and I've kept it to myself. Because when I was flying, I had bad days, too. People were screwing up on steam-driven old bangers long before they were screwing up on fancy full-colour, automated wizzocopters.
I have seen people so lacking in manual flying skills that the arrival of automation couldn't come too soon and I have seen people so baffled by the automation that they forgot to use their manual flying skills.
Only the detail of the problem has changed. The underlying issue is just the same. Familiarity with, expertise with, practice with, the equipment you are given to fly is what makes a professional, safe pilot. There are no prizes for guessing what I'm going to say next!
Where does that familiarity, that expertise, that practice come from?
TRAINING. And as much of it as you can get.
And don't tell me me about "real world" limitations. This thread is all about where that has got us.
Out.
Last edited by keithl; 13th Sep 2013 at 19:47.
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The most astonishing thing I've read for a while was in the Cougar report
This discussion has bounced back and forward over the last few days with the automation versus manual flying debate but when a situation such as this is discovered to exist within the Oil & Gas flying fraternity overseas, are we supposed to believe that similar cannot exist in the North Sea? 
Although the first officer had almost 1000 total flight hours on the S-92A, many of those hours were spent in coupled flight during instrument flight rules (IFR) flights to and from the offshore facilities, and not hand flying the helicopter. As a result, the first officer did not feel confident about having the necessary instrument flying skills to safely recover from the unusual attitude that had developed.
With you 100% Keithl
Al - calm down, its not good for your blood pressure at your age
The problem with the written word is that making yourself clear while trying to be concise is very difficult since people will always read what they want rather than what you have actually written.
Such problems have plagued me on these fora since I have often written what sounds correct to me but inflames others who interpret what I have written completely differently to what was intended.
We are all pretty much in agreement that flying skills (handling) are vitally important in all areas but management of systems and knowledge of the limitations and capabilities of those systems is crucial.
The balance of the 2 is, as Keithl echoes, all down to quality and quantity of training.
Al - calm down, its not good for your blood pressure at your age
The problem with the written word is that making yourself clear while trying to be concise is very difficult since people will always read what they want rather than what you have actually written. Such problems have plagued me on these fora since I have often written what sounds correct to me but inflames others who interpret what I have written completely differently to what was intended.
We are all pretty much in agreement that flying skills (handling) are vitally important in all areas but management of systems and knowledge of the limitations and capabilities of those systems is crucial.
The balance of the 2 is, as Keithl echoes, all down to quality and quantity of training.