AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
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Airwave,
I've worked on AC with explosive jettison canopies. Yes, helicopters. I'm also a LAE, but not on any of the NS types.
Floats only fire when you hit the water, by which time the chance of them hitting the TR are Irrelevant. Have the doors fire on the same circuit.
I'm pretty sure they could be designed in such a way to minimise the chance of TR strike if it happened in flight.
I've worked on AC with explosive jettison canopies. Yes, helicopters. I'm also a LAE, but not on any of the NS types.
Floats only fire when you hit the water, by which time the chance of them hitting the TR are Irrelevant. Have the doors fire on the same circuit.
I'm pretty sure they could be designed in such a way to minimise the chance of TR strike if it happened in flight.
Last edited by RotaryWingB2; 1st Sep 2013 at 20:33.
The Chinese registered 332L1s I flew had their respective main door jettison handles behind each pilot as well as the ones in the cabin. The SOP after ditching was to check that the rotor had stopped, jettison all the doors and initiate the sponson mounted dinghies.
The dinghies were smaller than the standard I remember on the NS but if required the sponsons could always be made bigger. Performance is not a problem. A 332 with large sponsons incorporating fuel tanks goes about five knots faster than an ordinary one.
The dinghies were smaller than the standard I remember on the NS but if required the sponsons could always be made bigger. Performance is not a problem. A 332 with large sponsons incorporating fuel tanks goes about five knots faster than an ordinary one.
Floats only fire when you hit the water, .......
Last edited by diginagain; 1st Sep 2013 at 20:39.
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All this talk of cost to the oilco is missing the point. It doesn't cost the oilco an extra bean that he cannot recover from the punter at the pump.
But the only way to make this universal is for the regulator to get involved because left up to the oilcos - well, you can make your own assumption on that.
The best thing that offshore workers can do is contact the CAA and ask them if they ever have a thought for the "Bears" and if they come back and say yes then invite them to come visit you for the day. During the day arrange for them to be dunked in a 332 fuselage with 18 people inside (in the dark), upside down and let them have a go at getting out.
Then, afterwards, over lunch sit down a talk to them about endorsing a proposal to rip out a few seats in the interest of passenger safety.
With a CAA directive in place the oilcos will readily conform.
I'm pretty sure they could be designed in such a way to minimise the chance of TR strike if it happened in flight.
I had flown it on its previous sortie.
Originally Posted by Anthony Supplebotton
The best thing that offshore workers can do is contact the CAA and ask them if they ever have a thought for the "Bears" and if they come back and say yes then invite them to come visit you for the day. During the day arrange for them to be dunked in a 332 fuselage with 18 people inside (in the dark), upside down and let them have a go at getting out.
Doors departing airframes in an uncontrolled manner isn't an attractive option. XZ244.
Last edited by diginagain; 1st Sep 2013 at 20:51.
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Somewhere, someone, can find out how many people died in the old RGIT pool in Aberdeen doing HUET training.
There were a few (i remember being told 4 or 6)
But it's more than 1 and probably less than 10.
There is a reason why the pool is now heated, the lights are left on, the wind machine is no longer needed and the wave machine is not fitted to the new facilities.
(and the windows are huge, the pax in the dunker are limited to 6)
Oilfield trash are too soft to train as we fight (we'd really rather not fight at all, thank you very much) we would gleefully ditch the training too, if we could . .
There were a few (i remember being told 4 or 6)
But it's more than 1 and probably less than 10.
There is a reason why the pool is now heated, the lights are left on, the wind machine is no longer needed and the wave machine is not fitted to the new facilities.
(and the windows are huge, the pax in the dunker are limited to 6)
Oilfield trash are too soft to train as we fight (we'd really rather not fight at all, thank you very much) we would gleefully ditch the training too, if we could . .
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The last time I done the HUET - quite some time ago the pool diver told us - Ditch and roll exercise , You count to 7 ( this is the time to allow the rotor blades to stop ) but don't do what the wee japanese guy done the other week . Every one else was out and he was still inside , so we went in to get him and he was clinging on to his seat / harness , so after a while of pulling at him and bubbles coming out of his mouth we finally managed to get him free and pull him to the side . When we got him out we asked what he was playing at . Turned out he was trying to stay put for 7 minutes . Minor misunderstanding .
Originally Posted by airwave45
Oilfield trash are too soft to train as we fight (we'd really rather not fight at all, thank you very much) we would gleefully ditch the training too, if we could .
Of course, if we could guarantee that airframes wouldn't drop into the oggin from time to time we could go to work in our 501s and tee-shirts straight from Spiders.
But we can't, so the reality is we must train for the worst-case-scenario to give ourselves every opportunity to survive. Ignore that imperative, and you might as well stay at home.
Last edited by diginagain; 1st Sep 2013 at 21:32.
Having had a door depart at 160kias in an A109, it can concentrate the mind in a very short space of time.....
Savoia 
I love your illustration of the 'Mechta M64 Skyboat' (and the name too...
). Credit where it's due, the parachute was Anthony Supplebottom's addition. It may be worth putting the parachute on the back (so the boat hangs bow down) for a softer arrival.
The S-64 Skycrane was just an example, as most people reading this will be aware of what they look like. I'm not suggesting we use a 51 year old helicopter which is probably too big & heavy for almost every oil platform and wouldn't have the range or speed.
If somebody suitably important from the offshore helicopter industry were to knock on Sikorsky's and Eurocopter's doors on Monday morning, I'm sure they would sit up and take notice if asked:
When Jackie Stewart started in Formula 1, drivers didn't even wear seatbelts and stood a 66% chance of being killed if they raced for 5 years. Thanks to his efforts, and against a great deal of opposition, we now have drivers strapped in carbon fibre safety cells that enable them to walk away from crashes that their forebears wouldn't have dreamed of as being survivable.
If there is a will to make something safe it can be done.
I love your illustration of the 'Mechta M64 Skyboat' (and the name too...
). Credit where it's due, the parachute was Anthony Supplebottom's addition. It may be worth putting the parachute on the back (so the boat hangs bow down) for a softer arrival.The S-64 Skycrane was just an example, as most people reading this will be aware of what they look like. I'm not suggesting we use a 51 year old helicopter which is probably too big & heavy for almost every oil platform and wouldn't have the range or speed.
If somebody suitably important from the offshore helicopter industry were to knock on Sikorsky's and Eurocopter's doors on Monday morning, I'm sure they would sit up and take notice if asked:
- How long it would take to design and manufacture 'Skycrane' versions of the S-92 & EC225 respectively, using all their existing mechanics and avionics?
- What the payload would be?
When Jackie Stewart started in Formula 1, drivers didn't even wear seatbelts and stood a 66% chance of being killed if they raced for 5 years. Thanks to his efforts, and against a great deal of opposition, we now have drivers strapped in carbon fibre safety cells that enable them to walk away from crashes that their forebears wouldn't have dreamed of as being survivable.
If there is a will to make something safe it can be done.
Last edited by Mechta; 1st Sep 2013 at 21:41.
If there is a will to make something safe it can be done.
Last edited by diginagain; 1st Sep 2013 at 21:52.
Fixed Wing related....but raises some interesting points about Flight Training and Licensing as well as Visual Approaches.
The Pilot Shortage, Visual Approaches and Mc-Pilots
The Pilot Shortage, Visual Approaches and Mc-Pilots
Seeing there are "underwater emergency breathing apparatus"on sale why don't all passengers carry them.
First read about them on tuna boat flying and someone carried one with him in case he went for an unexpected swim.
Seems they are good for 30 breaths or a couple of minutes.
First read about them on tuna boat flying and someone carried one with him in case he went for an unexpected swim.
Seems they are good for 30 breaths or a couple of minutes.
http://www.pose-online.com/index.php...&category_id=3
Mechta, is what you are describing a civil version of the AW101 or CH-53?
The AW101 is civil certified but AFAIK there is only one in service in Japan.
I bet a civil version of either of them is oooooo so expensive!
The AW101 is civil certified but AFAIK there is only one in service in Japan.
I bet a civil version of either of them is oooooo so expensive!
Diginagain wrote:
The Formula 1 car may be a form of entertainment for you and me, but it is also an extremely challenging piece of engineering design for its creators.
If offshore helicopters were designed from the ground up with occupant survivability having been given the same emphasis as it is on a modern Formula 1 car, then you would be walking out to a very different beast for your lift to work.
Don't get me wrong, The way I see it there is a very real problem to be addressed. The short term changes to get the best out of the current people, equipment and methods have already been discussed in this thread at some length. After that, the industry needs to look at the tools for the job and see what can be done to change them and overcome the hazards you currently face.
If, in twenty years time, oil workers are still expected to climb through submerged windows and clamber into a liferaft, in typical North Sea conditions, in a manner which has even caused fatalities in training, then we haven't really done the best we can for them, have we?
I expect the first proposal for a freefall lifeboat met with a lot of skepticism and probably some derision too; 'You want to drop us how far?'
Snag. Your example is a form of entertainment. Nikki Lauda didn't put himself out for my personal benefit. Other than that........
If offshore helicopters were designed from the ground up with occupant survivability having been given the same emphasis as it is on a modern Formula 1 car, then you would be walking out to a very different beast for your lift to work.
Don't get me wrong, The way I see it there is a very real problem to be addressed. The short term changes to get the best out of the current people, equipment and methods have already been discussed in this thread at some length. After that, the industry needs to look at the tools for the job and see what can be done to change them and overcome the hazards you currently face.
If, in twenty years time, oil workers are still expected to climb through submerged windows and clamber into a liferaft, in typical North Sea conditions, in a manner which has even caused fatalities in training, then we haven't really done the best we can for them, have we?
I expect the first proposal for a freefall lifeboat met with a lot of skepticism and probably some derision too; 'You want to drop us how far?'
Hazmat regulations might be a problem as it is not an "issue" item by the "Carrier".
One example....had my PFD in my carry on as I was going fire fighting at the other end of the State. When I went through Security...despite the TSA guy knowing me, the Airline Station Manager knowing me....and even the Captain knowing me too....(or was it because they knew me....) the CO2 bottles in the PFD were not allowed on the aircraft.
After that....they went into the Hold Baggage.....out of sight out of mind...but a violation none the less.
One example....had my PFD in my carry on as I was going fire fighting at the other end of the State. When I went through Security...despite the TSA guy knowing me, the Airline Station Manager knowing me....and even the Captain knowing me too....(or was it because they knew me....) the CO2 bottles in the PFD were not allowed on the aircraft.
After that....they went into the Hold Baggage.....out of sight out of mind...but a violation none the less.
During my initial helicopter training my course of 3 had to go down to HMS Vernon to do the dunker. After ascending the tower in an old clanking lift we reached the top. As we arrived about 12 Marines were entering the rear cabin of the Wessex.
As young pilots we stared wide eyed as the dunker then began to rotate and dip cockpit down into the water. After a few seconds under water the water began to froth and boil as the marines exploded out of the cabin through the 4 windows and door. There were bootmarks on foreheads as they fought to get out - it was the most frightening thing I had seen so far in training. The 3 of us looked at each other and wondered what we had let ourselves in for. Fortunately our session was just for the 3 of us, a turn in each seat along with sitting on the door sill - which was the most difficult as the Wessex rolled door to water so you had to really hold on or you would have been swept backwards into the cabin.
I think that the idea of having a full load of pax being immersed would be full of dangers!! The idea of the dunker is to give you confidence that you will get out if you follow the training. Hand on buckle - other on exit route.
HF
As young pilots we stared wide eyed as the dunker then began to rotate and dip cockpit down into the water. After a few seconds under water the water began to froth and boil as the marines exploded out of the cabin through the 4 windows and door. There were bootmarks on foreheads as they fought to get out - it was the most frightening thing I had seen so far in training. The 3 of us looked at each other and wondered what we had let ourselves in for. Fortunately our session was just for the 3 of us, a turn in each seat along with sitting on the door sill - which was the most difficult as the Wessex rolled door to water so you had to really hold on or you would have been swept backwards into the cabin.
I think that the idea of having a full load of pax being immersed would be full of dangers!! The idea of the dunker is to give you confidence that you will get out if you follow the training. Hand on buckle - other on exit route.
HF