AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

[airwave45]

Quote:
Originally Posted by batboy1970
Apologies for not reading every post as this may have been asked already but has it been reported if any of the pax deployed rebreather and if it was effective or was the whole thing just to quick with there being no brace warning given, point raised is has the rebreather actually been used in anger ?? , personally I hated it on every foet I've done and found it so bloody diddly I'd likely take my chances without it

Originally posted by Digininagain
Like it or loathe it, it's there to give you a fighting chance. 10 or 15 seconds of alternate air could easily make the difference between getting out or not.

I personally feel that the use of the rebreather equipment is _much_ more likely to act as an anchor / catch stopping me getting out of the window than any possible positive use under water.
Like many on the Huet courses I detest the things.
I'm not designed to breath under water and it took (not intending doing it again) every ounce of self control I had not to panic while using it in the pool.

I know I'm not alone in that either which is why a diver is sent down with you to watch you use it (first time with it, I and many others just held our breath to do the exercises underwater.)

The best place to be with an inverted helicopter in the water is outside watching it.
Whatever "Genius" thought it would be a good idea to make people wear yet more crap to catch on the windows during egress, really, needs a slap.

Sorry, my opinion only.
I'm sure there are people more comfortable than I using re-breathers in inverted helicopters, in the north sea, in the waves and the wind.

Been speaking face to face to a couple of (helicopter) pilots over the last two days, there is NO concept of how scared the SLF really are.
Watched the local news interviewing bears about to fy offshore Wed, you could almost see their arms being wrenched up their back to say they were happy to fly.

Been speaking to fellow oilfield trash and the guys have a massive dislike of the 225.

There needs to be some serious work done to Show the Bears, why, the Pilots like the 225 so much, and speaking to a guy at the pointy end, he did indicate that the 225 will get you out of the doo doo more times than it will get you in it.
The bears don't know that.

Time would be well spent letting them know what the flying community think _before_ it comes back into service.

Now, I know it's not in your job description to hold the hand of the pax while big boy pants are put on prior to committing aviation, but, if you let the "management" loose on the Bears we'll have another train wreck with "Big boy pants" (or worse) and the already revolting (quietly) bears, really, will dig their heels in.

And bears digging in heels involves them finding other jobs. so, a fair old commitment.

I'd love to take DB up on his public offer of a look round the 225 sim, however.
I've nailed my colours to being Ex N Sea, and am quite happy with that.
(and therefore it would be a waste of good sim time, much as I'd have a hoot playing with it)

There are people EC should be taking round for a look, Safety reps mostly.
But beware bamboozling the guys.
Remember how many years it took for you to be comfortable with what you are doing?
Start with the premise that none of the guys will have heard of gyroscopic presecion and most won't know how a wing works, never mind transitional lift and drag curves.
But all will know how a helicopter in the sea is bad, be that through a gearbox failure or a procedural failure. (Both of which the 225 should now be free of, fingers crossed)

Effort of the flying communities part will _significantly_ reduce the stress levels on the Bears, and will decrease the likelihood of the guys looking for alternates.

Which, is a win win.

And I did like the pictures of the free fall lifeboat / heavy lift 'elicopter.
Serious discussions on improvement are allowed moments of levity, or everyone switches off.

Sorry for the long post.

[HeliComparator]

Airwave, interesting take on the rebreather. When I did my dunker drill the time before last we had a go with them and I thought they were great, really taking the pressure off the rush to get out, and not forgetting that in the real world of cold cold sea, the gasp reflex is very powerful. I had done a little bit of scuba diving so for me, the concept of breathing underwater was not alien. I was rather jealous that the pax got them it we didn't.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

So 4 people have died, the passengers are very concerned about the size of the SP cabin and our oil industry is trying to find a quick solution to their concern so that helicopter transport capacity can be returned to a more normal level and you call it boring

I know 4 people died. I, like many, spent hours on Friday night checking on here and elsewhere hoping to god it wasnt anybody I knew. Fortunately, it wasn't. If you did, I'm sorry for your loss. But I'm not going to sit around being earnestly serious all day on Pprune trying to find a quick solution for a tricky helicopter design problem!

We know the SP is cramped and uncomfortable in the back, this is not news. There is but one quick solution to that problem: fewer passengers, and we covered that pages ago.

Longer term, there is plenty that can be done to design a better interior, but that doesn't need to be done on this forum, right here and right now.

The very first thing we have to do is try and demonstrate to our pax that they are not taking their lives in their hands everytime they step on board. That wont happen on here either. In the meantime, I'm sure they won't begrudge us a tiny bit of levity.

It's not boring, but you slapping people down for trying to have a tiny bit of fun is.

[airwave45]

Airwave, interesting take on the rebreather. When I did my dunker drill the time before last we had a go with them and I thought they were great, really taking the pressure off the rush to get out, and not forgetting that in the real world of cold cold sea, the gasp reflex is very powerful. I had done a little bit of scuba diving so for me, the concept of breathing underwater was not alien. I was rather jealous that the pax got them it we didn't.

you have a door to get out of,
We have a wee window, a very wee window once you think of survival suit, lifejacket and rebreather . . all of which increase our already not insubstantial girth . . . . .

[dakarman]

Finally got some internet back and would like to add a few more brief comments from the back seats.

Rebreathers - hate them personally and the do create more bulk possibly making escape harder but do they work? I remain to be convinced even after use in the dunker - evidence from the recent incident will be informative.

Dunker - A suggestion has been made to make it more realistic. Personally I think this may be a good idea however that is extremely unlikely to go down well with the workforce as every time I have done it there have been several people terrified of it. I dislike it myself and thats in a warm pool with minimum people and safety divers.

A comment was made about testing with 332 dunker (if it existed) with 19 people in a more realistic situation. From my experiences in the normal HUET, there is no way this extreme could be allowed from the HSE standpoint. It would be very dangerous and even in controlled conditions I strongly suspect would lead to injury to the testers. I guess this does not say too much about a real heli full of people and the likelyhood of escape.

A final thought, the SLF often refer to the center back seat as the dead mans seat........

Thanks again for allowing a non pilot to add to this discussion. Oh and by the way, love the skycrane / lifeboat combo. Only change I would make is use a freefall lifeboat. Comfortable backwards facing seats (in the newer type) and could be ejected well before the water.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Comfortable backwards facing seats (in the newer type) and could be ejected well before the water.

So drop the lifeboat from the skycrane, and then eject the seats from the lifeboat?

Outstanding idea! Can I have a go?

[dakarman]

Oops slight description failure there. I was of course thinking of the freefall lifeboats already designed to be dropped from a height and have backwards facing seats. Combined with the parachute would be great.

[SASless]

From my experiences in the normal HUET, there is no way this extreme could be allowed from the HSE standpoint. It would be very dangerous and even in controlled conditions I strongly suspect would lead to injury to the testers

That is under very controlled and benign conditions.....perhaps we should train as we fight....as realistically as possible.

Do you reckon if you spent a full week gradually working your way up to the Full Monte.....fewer people would be as anxious and fearful? Do we spend too little time at this training....perhaps not do it often enough....what about letting folks choose their own time to do the training so long as there are vacancies and they remain current? Would that lessen the stress?

[jimf671]

A comment was made about testing with 332 dunker (if it existed) with 19 people in a more realistic situation. From my experiences in the normal HUET, there is no way this extreme could be allowed from the HSE standpoint. It would be very dangerous and even in controlled conditions I strongly suspect would lead to injury to the testers. I guess this does not say too much about a real heli full of people and the likelyhood of escape.

I think this is work that needs to be done, and looked at very thoroughly, but as a piece of research and not routinely for the general offshore population. Using genuine offshore workers would be a good idea and getting a few dozen dive-qualified ones might not be too hard. Stick bottles on their rebreathers for back-up and you've solved the safety problem.

You need an aircraft sized dunker with movable seats and exchangeable side panels for 332/225/92 ... .

If somebody built this then it could also be a tool for investiging accidents.

[diginagain]

One problem that I can see with using volunteers with a bit of dive experience is that the replication of a real evacuation might see 19 blokes watching to see who bottles-out first.

[dakarman]

I suspect you would find with regards to more advance HUET courses a strong reluctance. This may not be due to people not wanting to learn to do it but much more likely the human nature in not wanting it to happen / think it can happen to them (i.e. an accident) and therefore there would be no need to train for it.

If you ask most bears I suspect you would get the answer that the HUET even as it stands is something to be gotten over with as infrequently and quickly as possible. Partially due to the fact its unpleasant and maybe subconsciously it reminds people accidents can happen. I realise this may seem a bit contradictory and hope I am not misrepresenting the opinions of other by too much.

I realise this discussion is regarding safety but I think if you look at human nature my previous comments regarding cabin comfort in the minds of most folk who don't want to think about an accident, that would probably have a greater influence.

With regards the full 19 dunker, I suspect this would be very useful for research etc but please don't invite me to get on it.

Finally can the people pod have rockets and lasers please? No idea why but it should.

[Lorimer]

high floats on a wasp meaning that you would be underwater with potentially a still spinning disc to emerge into....!

VP-F suggests in post 1012 that high level floats could mean a still rotating rotor.
I had the misfortune to enter the sea one very dark and wet night in my Wasp (long story) and can assure of two things.

Firstly the flotation was cunningly devised so that the pilot sat there with his (no women in those days!) mouth and nose just submerged, and secondly there is no chance whatsoever that a rotor is still turning. The splash ensures that the blades come to a very sudden halt and the engine (only one!) is doused instantly. Just as well we flew over the sea without doors!

And in the Royal Navy our ditching training in those days included night submersion, which after the usual variable rotation down to a depth of many feet was a considerable challenge, but was excellent training in case the worst should happen.

[PlasticCabDriver]

SASless,

Pod to pods. Like your thinking.

Perhaps you could link the Peoples Pod to both sets of cockpit pods. This will ensure extraordinarily careful reading of the checklists, and ensure that CRM is rigorously practiced.

Each crewmember gets a set of wirecutters, but they can only be used to cut the other chaps wire. Thereby also removing cockpit conflict.

We're getting somewhere.

[check]

Airwave45
Your comment regarding the door while correct does raise a point or two. Now things may have changed since I left the UK North Sea, but in my day it was writen that the pilots would go aft in the event of a ditching to operate the doors. In KLM Helicopters we always carried a cabin attendant irrespective of pax numbers who operated the rear door of the S61 and one pilot operated the sliding door.

That is the theory, in practice it almost cost a pilots' life as he went aft and was trampled in the rush to get out. In this ditching there was no loss of life.

My point is there is no easy solution to evacuation. While we have cramped cabins and full compliment of passengers there will always be the risk of fatalities. For the foreseeable future the cabin will remain, so the only variable is the pax numbers and while safety is important to the oil companies they may baulk at the extra cost resulting from reduced payloads. The financial controller who receives a request for a multi million increase to the transport budget is not going to be a happy chappy.

[RotaryWingB2]

What about doors that jettison automatically in tandem with the floats firing?

Can't be that hard to design or certify.

[airwave45]

RotaryWingB2 What about doors that jettison automatically in tandem with the floats firing?

Can't be that hard to design or certify.

In the event of a malfunction in forward flight they'll take the tailrotor off.
Which would spoil your afternoon.

[diginagain]

Originally Posted by check

The financial controller who receives a request for a multi million increase to the transport budget is not going to be a happy chappy.

Without putting too fine a point on it, our financial controller may not have a choice. Would making egress easier by reducing capacity, in the short-term at least as a measure to increase passenger confidence, too high a price to pay?

My experience of this industry, is that at the end of the day the customer, the bod at the end of the supply-chain who puts fuel in his car or central heating oil in his tank will pay whatever it costs to have convenience. All this talk of cost to the oilco is missing the point. It doesn't cost the oilco an extra bean that he cannot recover from the punter at the pump.

[n305fa]

Interesting article in the Sunday Herald about the accident

The Scottish Sunday herald is running an interesting piece on the accident.





Crash investigator: 'We can't say the Super Puma is safe' | Herald Scotland

[airwave45]

The financial controller who receives a request for a multi million increase to the transport budget is not going to be a happy chappy.

The curse of middle management.
A multi million budget increase pales into insignificance with the actual costs incurred in this situation and the possible reputational damage to the OilCo's

That and helicopter management being pussies for operating to limits.
In a highly competitive environment, you'll aim to outperform the competition.
Maybe as a sector, getting torque limits to 80% by reducing range / load is a good thing.
Maybe better than being cheaper than the competition.

There is an oft used saying by the bears.
Fast, cheap, safe.
Pick two.

Works other places than oilrigs.

[JohnDixson]

S-65 vs S-92 Cabin Dimension Comparison

SAS,

CH-53D:

Length 30' 0"
Height 6' 6"
Width. 7' 6"

S-92:

Length 20' 0"
Height 6' 0"
Width 6' 7"