AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
If you recall....back when you were doing that....I bragged on you.
The initiative you started on that is exactly the kinds of things that need to be done within the Industry but on all levels and on all sorts of issues.
Improvements can start at the bottom and work their way up the chain as that is where the closest contact with what is actually needed occurs.
Fancy, gold plated, glitzy over hyped programs with catchy Titles sound good...but don't really accomplish much. It is the hard work, which way too often is rejected, refused, or neglected by those well up the Management Chain that holds the best chance for making immediate improvements in safety.
I absolutely pissed off a most Senior fellow at one Operator....when I asked him how it felt to be in charge of an Operation where he knew without a doubt that he would be attending three or four Pilot's Funerals every single year he was in charge. He was a good Guy.....new to the job....and I think took to Heart what I meant by that question.
He had inherited a lot of problems.....and over time a lot of good changes took place. Some years he did not have the need to attend any Funerals at all.
The initiative you started on that is exactly the kinds of things that need to be done within the Industry but on all levels and on all sorts of issues.
Improvements can start at the bottom and work their way up the chain as that is where the closest contact with what is actually needed occurs.
Fancy, gold plated, glitzy over hyped programs with catchy Titles sound good...but don't really accomplish much. It is the hard work, which way too often is rejected, refused, or neglected by those well up the Management Chain that holds the best chance for making immediate improvements in safety.
I absolutely pissed off a most Senior fellow at one Operator....when I asked him how it felt to be in charge of an Operation where he knew without a doubt that he would be attending three or four Pilot's Funerals every single year he was in charge. He was a good Guy.....new to the job....and I think took to Heart what I meant by that question.
He had inherited a lot of problems.....and over time a lot of good changes took place. Some years he did not have the need to attend any Funerals at all.
Last edited by SASless; 28th Aug 2013 at 15:02.
Is this the latest news from Norway's Meeting today?
Norway rejects union calls to ground Super Pumas | Energy Voice
Norway rejects union calls to ground Super Pumas | Energy Voice
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Scatness
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would seem further wreckage has now been located tonight, the Bibby Polaris had left the site to proceed to Lerwick but has now returned. Photo shows two small boats plus a marker buoy right at the point of Garth's Ness. :-
Wreckage location IMG_8349 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Wreckage location IMG_8349 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Luton
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As if to remind us that risk is not confined to any one aircraft
Evening Express - Article - Helicopter grounded in new offshore alert
Helicopter grounded in new offshore alert
Sikorsky S92 reported error on rig
By Oliver Berrow, Samantha Leckie and Chris Foote
Published: 28/08/2013
ANOTHER helicopter operating in the North Sea has been grounded after an alert on an oil rig, the Evening Express can reveal today.
The crew of the Bristow-operated Sikorsky S92 helicopter reported an error as it was about to lift off following a shift change on the Stena Don platform.
The grounding comes just days after four offshore workers lost their lives when a Super Puma helicopter crashed in the North Sea.
Evening Express - Article - Helicopter grounded in new offshore alert
Helicopter grounded in new offshore alert
Sikorsky S92 reported error on rig
By Oliver Berrow, Samantha Leckie and Chris Foote
Published: 28/08/2013
ANOTHER helicopter operating in the North Sea has been grounded after an alert on an oil rig, the Evening Express can reveal today.
The crew of the Bristow-operated Sikorsky S92 helicopter reported an error as it was about to lift off following a shift change on the Stena Don platform.
The grounding comes just days after four offshore workers lost their lives when a Super Puma helicopter crashed in the North Sea.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 61
Posts: 1,297
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
4 Posts
LTNABZ
This is not risk. The S92 crew have followed their drills and the risk has been eliminated. This is absolutely stone cold normal aviation activity.
Well done to the crew for doing their job conscientiously knowing it would probably end up in the media.
DB
This is not risk. The S92 crew have followed their drills and the risk has been eliminated. This is absolutely stone cold normal aviation activity.
Well done to the crew for doing their job conscientiously knowing it would probably end up in the media.
DB
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 28th Aug 2013 at 18:36.
Gee....the writer of that article sure is stupid!
I hope he reads my comment and wishes to argue about it!
I am sure there are plenty of folks here who could explain on how many levels he is off base.
Non-Laudatory E-Mail sent to the source of that article.
I shall post their response should I get one.
I hope he reads my comment and wishes to argue about it!
I am sure there are plenty of folks here who could explain on how many levels he is off base.
Non-Laudatory E-Mail sent to the source of that article.
I shall post their response should I get one.
Last edited by SASless; 28th Aug 2013 at 18:48.
HC, DB and SAS - all respected contributors here - have referred to the importance of training. I have NO IDEA whether quantity or quality of training contributed to this accident. However, if the industry is looking for areas in which to demonstrate it's commitment to improving safety, I'd suggest that increasing training beyond what is strictly mandated by CAA (which is mostly about checking) would be a good place to start.
I do understand that there are commercial implications to doing more training, but this "incident", surely, has shown that accidents, also, have commercial implications. The trouble is that, because the accidents prevented by training didn't happen, you can't demonstrate that training prevented them.
Recruiting sufficient pilots to allow a percentage of FOs to be allocated to post-graduate development training would cost a significant sum, I know, but so did the equipment. The two (pilot skills / equipment capability) should be in parallel.
I do understand that there are commercial implications to doing more training, but this "incident", surely, has shown that accidents, also, have commercial implications. The trouble is that, because the accidents prevented by training didn't happen, you can't demonstrate that training prevented them.
Recruiting sufficient pilots to allow a percentage of FOs to be allocated to post-graduate development training would cost a significant sum, I know, but so did the equipment. The two (pilot skills / equipment capability) should be in parallel.
The situation in Norway as I under it.....
Customer(Statoil/Exxon) says Fly.
Eurocopter says Fly.
CHC/HS says Fly.
Union(SAFE) says No Fly.
There was a Press Release issued at the end of the Meeting.
Don't know if this is it.....
Norway rejects union calls to ground Super Pumas | Energy Voice
Has CHC made a Public Announcement of the Decision yet?
Checking to the only to the Minimum Standard without Recurrent Training as part of the evolution i, Check Pilots checking their fellow Check Pilots, and doing only the Minimum required training is not a recipe for success.
The Check process should be a training procedure as well as just testing for compliance to the minimum standard. That way....hopefully....performance at some point exceeds the minimum acceptable level.
Company TRE/IRE's checking one another if not monitored very carefully can result in serious degradation of standards. Getting third party evaluations of Check Airmen is a very valuable Tool to improve standards.
Using Third Party Audits also assists Management in finding potential weaknesses in the Operation......sometimes an outsider might just have a better idea.
If you are afraid of having someone inspect your operation and make very candid evaluations of what they see......perhaps there is a real need for that evaluation.
One Guy's Opinion anyway.
Customer(Statoil/Exxon) says Fly.
Eurocopter says Fly.
CHC/HS says Fly.
Union(SAFE) says No Fly.
There was a Press Release issued at the end of the Meeting.
Don't know if this is it.....
Norway rejects union calls to ground Super Pumas | Energy Voice
Has CHC made a Public Announcement of the Decision yet?
Checking to the only to the Minimum Standard without Recurrent Training as part of the evolution i, Check Pilots checking their fellow Check Pilots, and doing only the Minimum required training is not a recipe for success.
The Check process should be a training procedure as well as just testing for compliance to the minimum standard. That way....hopefully....performance at some point exceeds the minimum acceptable level.
Company TRE/IRE's checking one another if not monitored very carefully can result in serious degradation of standards. Getting third party evaluations of Check Airmen is a very valuable Tool to improve standards.
Using Third Party Audits also assists Management in finding potential weaknesses in the Operation......sometimes an outsider might just have a better idea.
If you are afraid of having someone inspect your operation and make very candid evaluations of what they see......perhaps there is a real need for that evaluation.
One Guy's Opinion anyway.
Last edited by SASless; 28th Aug 2013 at 19:27.
Seconds can count (post 641)
Colibri 49,
if seconds can count during routine business to get to the bowser first or to beat somebody else to the holding point you might want to rethink your attitude or get a b/r/g towel.
keithl,
I fully endorse your approach to training; maybe more trainers and aircraft should be allocated for that instead for the commercial trip.
But then there's got to be somebody with guts in the companies to run it past the clients.
if seconds can count during routine business to get to the bowser first or to beat somebody else to the holding point you might want to rethink your attitude or get a b/r/g towel.
keithl,
I fully endorse your approach to training; maybe more trainers and aircraft should be allocated for that instead for the commercial trip.
But then there's got to be somebody with guts in the companies to run it past the clients.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have followed this thread since the tragic incidence happend on the 23. My deepest condolences to the families of the "pax" who did not survive the ditch.
Being a norwegian pilot with experience in the NS since 1984 I'm a bit surprised why the focus is so "high"on the different accident rate in the NS between the UK side and the "noggis". Well, first of all we have had our share of serious accidendts back in the 70's with the S61.So did the UK side. Later on we had several accidents/indidents with different helicopter types being used in the NS.
I do not see any significant differences in SOP's or the OM on the UK side and "noggis"side. Having worked close with the operational management on one UK operator I must admit that the standard and high quality of helo ops impressed me. Why then is the accident rate higher on the UK side. I don't have the answer but this has to be solved. We"noggis" do have a high BNP but still we have to argue a lot to safety improvments. The happenings on the UK side is not a booster to the helicopter transport for the "pax".
We need to establish some sort of cooperation between operators in the NS where we sort out best practicies and safety programs and leaving competitions out....
Being a norwegian pilot with experience in the NS since 1984 I'm a bit surprised why the focus is so "high"on the different accident rate in the NS between the UK side and the "noggis". Well, first of all we have had our share of serious accidendts back in the 70's with the S61.So did the UK side. Later on we had several accidents/indidents with different helicopter types being used in the NS.
I do not see any significant differences in SOP's or the OM on the UK side and "noggis"side. Having worked close with the operational management on one UK operator I must admit that the standard and high quality of helo ops impressed me. Why then is the accident rate higher on the UK side. I don't have the answer but this has to be solved. We"noggis" do have a high BNP but still we have to argue a lot to safety improvments. The happenings on the UK side is not a booster to the helicopter transport for the "pax".
We need to establish some sort of cooperation between operators in the NS where we sort out best practicies and safety programs and leaving competitions out....
Nigerian In Law
Career Stepping Stone(s)
26500lbs,
On the whole I agree with your post, however in my 23 years on the NS and in Nigeria I have found that the overwhelming majority of coal face commercial pressure emanates from "middle" management, eg Chief Pilots, Ops Managers etc (Sasless and I both suffered it in Nigeria in times past), and not from the very top.
It is exactly as you say, they are worried about their careers and what the top guys will think. Ironically the top guys, having the big picture, would probably much rather a flight didn't go with anything, be it weather, aircraft status or whatever being compromised as they understand the commercial implications of an accident, incident or a flight aborted mid mission.
This could be why investigations focus on the pilots and engineers and not senior management, because experience has shown the investigators that the top people have no idea what transpired. Whether ex pilots/engineers or not the specific operational/engineering issues or that information which would be pertinent is concealed from them by their ambitious subordinates.
I hope, as I think we all do, that in view of the high profile attracted this time, things will change for the better.
NEO
On the whole I agree with your post, however in my 23 years on the NS and in Nigeria I have found that the overwhelming majority of coal face commercial pressure emanates from "middle" management, eg Chief Pilots, Ops Managers etc (Sasless and I both suffered it in Nigeria in times past), and not from the very top.
It is exactly as you say, they are worried about their careers and what the top guys will think. Ironically the top guys, having the big picture, would probably much rather a flight didn't go with anything, be it weather, aircraft status or whatever being compromised as they understand the commercial implications of an accident, incident or a flight aborted mid mission.
This could be why investigations focus on the pilots and engineers and not senior management, because experience has shown the investigators that the top people have no idea what transpired. Whether ex pilots/engineers or not the specific operational/engineering issues or that information which would be pertinent is concealed from them by their ambitious subordinates.
I hope, as I think we all do, that in view of the high profile attracted this time, things will change for the better.
NEO
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hassocks, Mid-Sussex
Age: 67
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: UK
Age: 72
Posts: 338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Grounding of the S92
Yet another embellishment by the media. This appears to be a fairly normal and correct decision not to fly one particular aircraft, NOT the grounding of the S92 fleet!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OMG, this refers to ONE S92 having a warning lights during T/O from a rig on the Troll field, close to the norwegian coast. 30 min flight to Bergen...
Credit to the crew for landing back and reporting this..
Credit to the crew for landing back and reporting this..
"Grounding" in the way it is used in the news article is not what it means in reality. It would lead the not knowing out there to assume the entire S-92 Fleet had been taken out of service when it is just a single aircraft with some kind of Technical Fault which as any true Aviation Professional knows....is a normal standard common action.
Among the Union Rants was a complaint about how often that has taken place in the past on all types of helicopters causing some inconvenience to the flight schedules.
Here at Rotorheads we usually ascribe to a higher standard of accuracy than does the Media and hopefully we can remember to do that as there are plenty of Media folks that glean information from us. The least we can do is make sure they are getting accurate info when they do that.
Lord knows their proclaimed Experts rarely concern themselves with the truth and stick to saying whatever keeps their Retainer coming in each payday.
Among the Union Rants was a complaint about how often that has taken place in the past on all types of helicopters causing some inconvenience to the flight schedules.
Here at Rotorheads we usually ascribe to a higher standard of accuracy than does the Media and hopefully we can remember to do that as there are plenty of Media folks that glean information from us. The least we can do is make sure they are getting accurate info when they do that.
Lord knows their proclaimed Experts rarely concern themselves with the truth and stick to saying whatever keeps their Retainer coming in each payday.
Last edited by SASless; 28th Aug 2013 at 21:29.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Warminster, UK
Age: 73
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SP survivor quote
The item on the S92 incident in the Scotsman referred to a couple of posts back also contains a statement attributed *directly* to a survivor of the SP accident (i.e. NOT just attributed only to a family member of a survivor) - as follows:
"The rig worker, who did not want to be named, said: “On approach to Sumburgh the chopper shook severely from side to side before lurching over to the left and plummeting from the air into the water and went over instantly. This all happened in a heartbeat. There was no ‘brace, brace, brace’ or mayday as it was so quick.”
This is the first apparent direct quote I have seen form anyone on board and appears to contain significant new information.
"The rig worker, who did not want to be named, said: “On approach to Sumburgh the chopper shook severely from side to side before lurching over to the left and plummeting from the air into the water and went over instantly. This all happened in a heartbeat. There was no ‘brace, brace, brace’ or mayday as it was so quick.”
This is the first apparent direct quote I have seen form anyone on board and appears to contain significant new information.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Abz
Age: 49
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts