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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

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AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013

Old 8th Nov 2013, 19:48
  #2141 (permalink)  
 
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SASless,

Unfortunately, the military is one area where I have very little experience, so I would be out of line if I made any comments regarding those programs.

On the commercial side, however, I have been involved in the development of simulators for new rotary wing types/variants, and I found the process lacking. Sims have always been an afterthought to the OEMs, and we were always 4th or 5th fiddle when it came to being heard and taken care of.

I see signs of this changing (at least on the rotary wing side of things), but OEMs move slowly.

HC has it right. If safety was the top concern of the OEMs and OEM suppliers, then OEMs/suppliers would make the information available. It's not, so they don't (or at least that's how it appears to be with a majority of the OEMs).

Some OEMs are friendlier than others (I'll avoid any names in order to protect my skin), and I think those friendlier OEMs have people in place that are legitimately trying to help make the best training devices they can, but money is king and those people don't control the money.
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 20:04
  #2142 (permalink)  
 
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Even if safety isn't the top priority of the OEMs (of course it isn't, profit is, although the canny ones realise that safety is good for profit) then you would at least think that it would be for the regulators who create such things as JAR/CS27/29. But perhaps they are weak in the face of lobbying from the OEMs and/or attend the same leisure institutions?
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 20:29
  #2143 (permalink)  
 
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Add one more thing to my list....

There should be a certification class called 'Complex Types'. This will introduce a rule that prohibits the use of the real aircraft for training where the rehearsal of any system failure or malfunction is to be carried out.

From the get-go the sim has to be up and running and the aircraft and the sim given simultaneous certification.

I know ..... in my dreams. But in the words of a certain song "if you don't have a dream how you gonna have a dream come true."

G.
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 20:53
  #2144 (permalink)  
 
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There should be a certification class called 'Complex Types'. This will introduce a rule that prohibits the use of the real aircraft for training where the rehearsal of any system failure or malfunction is to be carried out.
The the thing is though Geoffers that it's not system failure rehearsal that's causing accidents and ditchings. It s very simple LLZ approach to a runway, or an approach to a rig at night, another low airspeed type poor handling ditching in Nigeria (Bristow 332L which has been kept quite quiet) or loss of lube pumps.

Apart from the loss of lube pumps, all of these have been line related. I see the deficiency as being in line training, for which there is of course still a role for simulators.

Last edited by industry insider; 8th Nov 2013 at 21:20. Reason: Typo
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 21:13
  #2145 (permalink)  
 
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Do we really need a full motion, visual equipped, Level D Simulator.....to teach the intricacies of the AFCS and FMS systems on the aircraft?

Granted....it would be a perfect world if we did....but would not a super duper Systems Trainer suffice?
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 22:15
  #2146 (permalink)  
 
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SASless,

What you hint at is the difference between "training" and "checking".

Speaking from a non-regulatory standpoint, a good quality FTD can provide almost all of the systems training you could ever want (and if it has a good base shaker probably most of the flying training as well), while a higher fidelity device is probably desired during "checking".

The cost to benefit ratio of having a motion system is debatable. A hexapod is pretty limited in terms of the cues it can produce, so there's always a certain amount of misleading cues that get generated during the more aggressive maneuvers. A good argument can be made for bagging the motion system entirely and just going with a good vibration platform.

But all that is moot because the regulatory agencies dictate what level of device is required in order to receive "official" credit.

If a hard case could be made to the regulators that time spent in an FTD (which can cost nearly an order of magnitude less than a FFS) is just as effective as time spent in a FFS, then they might be willing to listen. But the process of creating a whole new set of regulations has just finished, so I don't think people have the energy for revisiting things at this point.
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 22:19
  #2147 (permalink)  
 
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SAS and II

SAS

Of course you are right, a motionless FTD is indeed a very good IF training device. The motion system is just the icing on the cake. I could probably teach 90% of the VFR stuff on a motionless FTD and get value out of it for the visual systems these days are first class and getting better al the time.

II

It's the very principle that I am concerned about. Is it right that a pilot can have a rating on the new generation helicopters without having seen how the aircraft behaves when system failures occur? Such is the clever design of these machines that it is impossible to demonstrate - safely - electrical failures, hydraulic failures, fuel system malfunctions, engine failures that truly replicate the real thing and autorotations.

If you were to add up the number of exceedances that occur doing real aircraft training then I am sure the number would frighten your socks off. Where are the incident reports I hear you say? Very good question. Don't expect transparency when accidents and incidents are concerned. Personal and national pride and commercial interests come first.

G.
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Old 9th Nov 2013, 00:14
  #2148 (permalink)  
 
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DOn't forget....

...that when the sims are working they are the most fantastic teaching tool and the future for them is brighter than it's ever been. We just need them to have fidelity and reliability and replicate the system behaviour of the real thing.

G.
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Old 9th Nov 2013, 16:15
  #2149 (permalink)  
ATN
 
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Among other things, more realism in every field is what is needed for the sim to be more efficient and fully accepted by the crews.


The display: this is where the most important improvements could be made. What we see in the reality from a few cm to infinity is displayed on a screen at few meters from the crew. I think it is the heart of the problem. It will take a quantum leap in technology to correct this. In the meantime, beefing up the hardware can improve things significantly.

The motion:

SFT
"A good argument can be made for bagging the motion system entirely and just going with a good vibration platform."

Doing this will only increase the difference between the real thing and the sim. A new system has been developped, which responds more effectively to controls inputs without this kick in the ass effect caused by the hydraulic, and which also cuts costs -no need for hydraulic.


Realism means that an input on the controls must be followed immediately by a change in the motion and the display simultaneously.
It also means that the lack of cues other than visual must be adressed, i.e. the noise caused by the airstream increasing with the airspeed.

The full similarity between the sim and the aircraft. Although every effort is made to fulfill this requirement, differences still exist and take some time to be fixed. I think of the AP software mods which are not immediately implemented on the sim.
Ideally, the aircrfat should be developped using a simulator as a tool.

The realism issue could be discussed ad nauseam, it always come down to big money. The slightest modification in the sim system costs an arm.

Sorry for highjacking the thread.

ATN
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Old 9th Nov 2013, 20:24
  #2150 (permalink)  
 
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ATN I disagree. The most important thing is accurate replication of the behaviour of the helicopter and all its systems, in all its normal and abnormal modes.

Good visuals are helpful, and whilst the limited distance to the projector dome causes parallax, in practice the human brain quickly adapts (quickly, as in a couple of minutes). Good field of view is important, but resolution really isn't. Of course, when flying IMC the visuals are useless!

Motion is mostly useful for the minor cues from turbulence, undercarriage ground contact, translational lift etc. Motion will always be limited, and it really isn't worth spending a lot of money to have a lot of motion travel - the money is better spent elsewhere.

In fact I would say that motion's primary purpose is to help reduce motion sickness. Sounds like a contradiction but with a wide field of view, visual cueing is very powerful and the brain doesn't like it if there is no motion cueing to go with the visual cues.

It must be remembered that we are not trying to teach people to fly with these sims. Hopefully they can already fly, and what we are trying to teach are the particular features of the type. Therefore realism in visual flying is not that important.

Last edited by HeliComparator; 9th Nov 2013 at 23:48.
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 00:03
  #2151 (permalink)  
 
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HC

I can go along with that no problem. Your observation that the candidates for a TR course can already fly seems to have passed the regulators by. When are they going to get it! You give a guy a commercial licence - what does that tell you? YES - HE CAN FLY A **[email protected] helicopter!!.

Why does every TR course devote so much of the time to something the authorities have already confirmed. What we need is to focus on what makes the new helicopter different and especially, these days, the systems that are at the heart of the beast.

The chances are that tomorrows 'loss of control' accident is going to be down to mishandling of the automation not a lack of flying skills per se.

G.
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 00:58
  #2152 (permalink)  
 
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Yet you treat every helicopter as a completely different "Type"....which sets you up for that situation.

At least in the FAA system....anything 12,500 pounds or less is considered the same "Type".

I use the adage..."A helicopter is a helicopter is a helicopter!".

They all have far more in common than they do differences when you really get down to the basics.

It is the differences that matter when it comes to conversions/transitions.

Why not focus on those?
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 00:58
  #2153 (permalink)  
 
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My tuppence worth -

1. The performance of the SIM should not only be aligned to the Aircraft Type specific teaching objectives but also to the requirements of the missions for which training is delivered. The cockpit layout, instruments and switches should be accurate (but the obsession with "Real" components is inappropriate).

2. For VMC operations (close the surface or obstacles) the visual field of view should provide the same visual references that we have from our crew seat. At least 50 degrees below the horizon and 210 degrees horizontally. Texture of the surfaces in the VDB is vital to provide visual references for accurate hovering and positioning for dynamic manoeuvres such as hospital or helideck take-offs.

3. Digital systems and associated aircraft behaviour should replicate exactly what happens in the aircraft.

4. Power performance modelling should be accurate to provide relevant frames of reference for the crew.

5. ALL flight manual NORMAL, ABNORMAL and EMERGENCY procedures should be available in the IOS and accurately represented.

6. Flight loop modelling should be as accurate as possible.

7. Motion should provide sufficient cues to prevent airsickness and provide realism. IMHO not as important as we might think.

8. Noise and vibration should be realistic and are easily achieved

DB
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 01:05
  #2154 (permalink)  
 
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DB,
"
I am not as convinced that "Motion" reduces "Sim Sickness".....as it is physically impossible to replicate actual felt sensation by means of the motion system.

The few times i got Sim Sick was upon flying the Sim immediately after lots of hours of flying the real helicopter within sometimes just hours of the getting into the Sim.

Your body gets confused when what you see visually does not comport with what you naturally feel during flight in those same situations. That is what got me....you do a steepish turn in the Sim and there are no G forces produced as in actual flight. The Sim may shift initially but then gradually reduces the input returning towards level as the turn continues....which is not the case in flight.
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 01:50
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SAS I agree but may have mislead with my comments. What I meant to say is it is impossible to recreate real motion without infinite ability to generate "G". As you say, once the actuators have "runout" the forces cannot be sustained.

It is because it is impossible to recreate real motion it's importance becomes less than a whole host of other characteristics. For large civil helicopter applications the motion response required for all normal and most abnormal procedures are minimal. For a few procedures, reject, auto, EOLS and TR malfunctions all motions systems reach their limit. However the impact on training can be minimal if the system responds sensibly and the flight loop is correctly modelled.

For military operations I suspect they need a little more from their motion systems but I see a coalescence between MIL and CIVIL Simulator training syllabi as the machines we operate become more complex. Setting battlefield sim scenarios aside, the training requirement becomes identical. To safely manage the machine in all normal and abnormal procedures.

Your thoughts on this would be welcomed.

DB
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 02:18
  #2156 (permalink)  
 
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DB & SAS

I suspect that the big difference between the military and civil sims is that the military focus on the task whereas we focus on the licensing process. Compliance overtakes competence as the priority and we have what we have today.

By the way, I called for original equipment to be fitted because I have had some experience of the 'ersatz' cockpit the 'cloners' produce. I wish it wash't so but they just don't work. Why? Because in the end the software is not the same so will always -trust me - always be second rate, unreliable and inaccurate.

EG. (This is all 139 stuff) You want to load a 'destination' as a LatLong = INVALID ENTRY
You want to demonstrate electrical failures = synoptic page shows all the wrong stuff plus the generator loads are set so high that you cannot carry out a PA check (even with the BT 'on' they are over 20% on both genies).

Example - and this is a classic - operating OEI with the cross feed closed - fuel consumption took the level below the connecting cross tube so expected the relevant tank to hang up at 228kg. No, it went on going down at the same rate as the one feeding the one remaining engine. Negative training features yet again.

Maybe you can ask the original software/hardware designer to produce 'certified' boxes for the real thing but supply non-certified copies to the sim makers.

As one previous contributor noted the key appears to be marrying a sim maker 'who cares' to a sim operator 'who cares'. I'm not holding my breath.

The only way forward is via the regulators and unfortunately the balance of power currently is not with them.

G.
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 05:46
  #2157 (permalink)  
 
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Having worked for one particular OEM, simulators are not considered "core business" so the whole simulator training program gets outsourced. Then the company to whom it has been outsourced has to make a business decision as to whether there are enough aircraft sales in a region to sustain a simulator.

I actually think this is completely wrong and counter productive. OEMs should be forced to provide sim training and data, even if they are actually built by another party.
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 06:54
  #2158 (permalink)  
 
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Geoffrey's and II. in Eurocopter design and build their own FFS using competent contractors. The results is as I have described. The Eurocopter EC225 FFS is very close to reality. As with all complex machines it has a couple of minor errors left only but these will also be corrected.

DB
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 21:58
  #2159 (permalink)  
 
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DB

Who conducts type trainig for EC on their simulators?
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Old 10th Nov 2013, 22:00
  #2160 (permalink)  
 
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TM, either the customers instructor or an EC SFI/TRI.

DB
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