UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
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Not so sure about Bristow being leader above everybody else when it comes to training. Maybe in the past but there are others out there far more up to speed and modern in their training, mentoring and attitude towards new and developing copilots.
This thread reminds me of when I first joined Bristow in 1980 as an S61 copilot straight from (Bristow's residential 9 month) flight school with CPL and no IR. Most of the captains were ex mil. Wow, the job was really complicated and these gods did it with such aplomb and style! How could I ever aspire to getting a command.
.... a year or two passed...
And I realised that the job was really pretty easy really, a bit of skill and experience, and a knowledge of the rules and client issues, and Bob's your uncle. So these self-elevated ex mil captains were making a huge meal of a relatively straightforward job and wallowing in their superiority.
Now my sole experience of SAR is doing drums (badly) a few times and once winching a live crewman down onto a ship on a nice day (well I think he was still alive) so I am no expert, and I found it "challenging", but I suspect doing SAR is like oil and gas - yes, really difficult if you don't have a bit of skill and experience in the role, but with some training its really not that hard, especially with the modern kit with rock steady auto-hover, fancy navaids, homers and FLIRs etc to at least be a cojo.
When I joined Bristow, nearly all the trainers were ex mil. Now virtually none of them are. Funny how we still manage to do training without the gracious benefit of ex mil trainers! It aint that hard unless you make a huge meal out of it!
ps there were of course exceptions and we had some great ex mil guys as well, but at the time they seemed to be in the minority!
.... a year or two passed...
And I realised that the job was really pretty easy really, a bit of skill and experience, and a knowledge of the rules and client issues, and Bob's your uncle. So these self-elevated ex mil captains were making a huge meal of a relatively straightforward job and wallowing in their superiority.
Now my sole experience of SAR is doing drums (badly) a few times and once winching a live crewman down onto a ship on a nice day (well I think he was still alive) so I am no expert, and I found it "challenging", but I suspect doing SAR is like oil and gas - yes, really difficult if you don't have a bit of skill and experience in the role, but with some training its really not that hard, especially with the modern kit with rock steady auto-hover, fancy navaids, homers and FLIRs etc to at least be a cojo.
When I joined Bristow, nearly all the trainers were ex mil. Now virtually none of them are. Funny how we still manage to do training without the gracious benefit of ex mil trainers! It aint that hard unless you make a huge meal out of it!
ps there were of course exceptions and we had some great ex mil guys as well, but at the time they seemed to be in the minority!
Last edited by HeliComparator; 9th Apr 2013 at 21:06.
HC said
oh dear HC, hope no-one ever needs your help around the 'back of the Ben' on a dark n stormy night! 
btw when is flying to a rig really difficult (yes, I have - frequently)
Now my sole experience of SAR is doing drums (badly) a few times and once winching a live crewman down onto a ship on a nice day (well I think he was still alive) so I am no expert, and I found it "challenging", but I suspect doing SAR is like oil and gas - yes, really difficult if you don't have a bit of skill and experience in the role, but with some training its really not that hard,
btw when is flying to a rig really difficult (yes, I have - frequently)
HC - sadly, though I value your knowledgeable posts elsewhere, your view of SAR is typical of many who haven't actually done any of it.
The majority of SAR jobs are straightforward but a significant minority do require a skillset above and beyond basic hovering.
The auto hover is no use to you when the boat you are trying to get the winchman on is bouncing around in 40 plus kts and 5 metre seas (especially in the dark) - nor when you are holding max power to combat downdraughting and turbulence against a cliff face whilst the winchman extricates a badly injured climber from the mountains.
Inland/urban SAR can be equally challenging as those who have been to the major flooding incidents in the last few years can tell you and if you think the co-pilot's job in any of these conditions is easy then you really ought to have a go.
In many situations, the technology and automatics allow you to take yourself beyond your level of talent.
Those, like Al-bert, who have been there and done it, know that critical situations are not the place for inexperience because it can go wrong so quickly.
Yes, we have new boys and girls in the LHS but a. they are very well trained and tested (both as handling ad non-handling pilots) and b. that inexperience is highly diluted across the SAR Force.
If what lala rumours is true, the whole of the UK SAR force (or a very great proportion of it) would suddenly have LCR co pilots with next to no experience of helicopter flying in general and SAR in particular right across the board. Now tell me that is a safe strategy.
The majority of SAR jobs are straightforward but a significant minority do require a skillset above and beyond basic hovering.
The auto hover is no use to you when the boat you are trying to get the winchman on is bouncing around in 40 plus kts and 5 metre seas (especially in the dark) - nor when you are holding max power to combat downdraughting and turbulence against a cliff face whilst the winchman extricates a badly injured climber from the mountains.
Inland/urban SAR can be equally challenging as those who have been to the major flooding incidents in the last few years can tell you and if you think the co-pilot's job in any of these conditions is easy then you really ought to have a go.
In many situations, the technology and automatics allow you to take yourself beyond your level of talent.
Those, like Al-bert, who have been there and done it, know that critical situations are not the place for inexperience because it can go wrong so quickly.
Yes, we have new boys and girls in the LHS but a. they are very well trained and tested (both as handling ad non-handling pilots) and b. that inexperience is highly diluted across the SAR Force.
If what lala rumours is true, the whole of the UK SAR force (or a very great proportion of it) would suddenly have LCR co pilots with next to no experience of helicopter flying in general and SAR in particular right across the board. Now tell me that is a safe strategy.
In my time on the Seaking, (swing the lamp) co-pilots were passed out of SKTU as fit to fly the a/c as captain during training sorties. This meant that once they had passed squadron acceptance then they flew all their allocated training hours from the RHS and signed for the a/c as captain. The on shift "operational" captain flew in the LHS and let the "operational" co-pilot get on with planning and flying the sortie with minimal interference. This allowed the co-pilot to develop not only handling skills in the RHS but also captaincy skills under supervision.
As the co-pilot gained experience it was in the remit of the "operational" captain to allow the co-pilot to fly, but not captain, simple SAR sorties from the RHS, this was particularly useful if a scramble was activated during a co-pilots training sortie. This allowed a gradual introduction to being "in charge" during a SAR sortie
Will this be the case for Civ SAR or will the co-pilot remain in the LHS at all times?
HF
As the co-pilot gained experience it was in the remit of the "operational" captain to allow the co-pilot to fly, but not captain, simple SAR sorties from the RHS, this was particularly useful if a scramble was activated during a co-pilots training sortie. This allowed a gradual introduction to being "in charge" during a SAR sortie
Will this be the case for Civ SAR or will the co-pilot remain in the LHS at all times?
HF
Crab, as I said I've done just enough SAR training to know that SAR requires its own set of skills and without adequate training, its a very difficult job. With adequate training, its a job like any other (well, maybe a more interesting one at times if you can stand the hours vegetating in the crew room!). When Bristow had the northern SAR bases its funny how we managed to train numerous copilots, many of whom are now very experienced SAR commanders.
The only major crash I can recall was when an ex mil up-himself commander managed to reverse an S61 into the sea. He was the type who thought that his copilot should be seen and not heard, an attitude inherited from the mil that I'm glad to say we have totally stamped out a long time ago.
All I am saying is that its just a job that, like any other aviation role, needs adequate training, but there is no myth, mysticism nor magic about it, you don't have to be a god to do it. In fact, am I not right in thinking that at least for the RAF, during initial training the hotshots go to fast jets, the also-rans go on to helis? So not exactly the cream of the crop!
HF Bristow have sensible command progression schemes - why would you imagine that we would keep a copilot in LHS copilot role for years, then suddenly expect him to become captain over night? Rather daft question if I may say so!
The only major crash I can recall was when an ex mil up-himself commander managed to reverse an S61 into the sea. He was the type who thought that his copilot should be seen and not heard, an attitude inherited from the mil that I'm glad to say we have totally stamped out a long time ago.
All I am saying is that its just a job that, like any other aviation role, needs adequate training, but there is no myth, mysticism nor magic about it, you don't have to be a god to do it. In fact, am I not right in thinking that at least for the RAF, during initial training the hotshots go to fast jets, the also-rans go on to helis? So not exactly the cream of the crop!
HF Bristow have sensible command progression schemes - why would you imagine that we would keep a copilot in LHS copilot role for years, then suddenly expect him to become captain over night? Rather daft question if I may say so!
Last edited by HeliComparator; 10th Apr 2013 at 10:43.
HC
not exactly HC - I know at least one pilot who never made Capt on Sea King but who then went on to Tornado, and I also know another who never made CR on SH but went on to be a BAH Captain.
no, it also needs guts and dedication to really do it properly. I'm sure that many folk at Aberdeen have that quality but far too many of the ones that I met there were interested in one thing only - their pay packet. 
In fact, am I not right in thinking that at least for the RAF, during initial training the hotshots go to fast jets, the also-rans go on to helis?
All I am saying is that its just a job that, like any other aviation role,
Last edited by Al-bert; 10th Apr 2013 at 11:02.
no, it also needs guts and dedication to really do it properly.
Or to put it another way, you typify my concerns!
Hmmm, I have pretty well kept away from this thread as the quality of much of the debate is lacking. But now, I can't help myself.
HC and Fareastdriver, I agree with you both completely. Plenty of Bristow HP Co-pilots went straight from ab initio training to SAR roles on the S-61 and are now experienced Commanders.
HC The ex mil up himself commander you refer to ended up working for me....until he had to go because of co pilot and customer complaints, I think he scared the passengers and I know he scared the co pilots....all that military superior training eh?
The notion that you have to be military trained, possess superman like skills and be a superior Sky God to be a good SAR pilot is just laughable. Those that attempt to join Bristow with that attitude are destined to spend some time at the local Job Centre.
HC and Fareastdriver, I agree with you both completely. Plenty of Bristow HP Co-pilots went straight from ab initio training to SAR roles on the S-61 and are now experienced Commanders.
HC The ex mil up himself commander you refer to ended up working for me....until he had to go because of co pilot and customer complaints, I think he scared the passengers and I know he scared the co pilots....all that military superior training eh?
The notion that you have to be military trained, possess superman like skills and be a superior Sky God to be a good SAR pilot is just laughable. Those that attempt to join Bristow with that attitude are destined to spend some time at the local Job Centre.
The notion that you have to be military trained, possess superman like skills and be a superior Sky God to be a good SAR pilot is just laughable. Those that attempt to join Bristow with that attitude are destined to spend some time at the local Job Centre.
Just that it takes a bit more interest in 'the job' than 'how big a house and how new a car I've got' which was usually the topic of conversation in Aberdeen when I was there. There seems to be a bit of 'chip on shoulder syndrome' from a few civvie posters. HC?
Last edited by Al-bert; 10th Apr 2013 at 12:49.
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I think it's fair to say there are pro's and cons on both sides. Of late it has been noted that the most recent mil turned civ SAR and offshore commanders display exemplary CRM and an even better attitude toward copilots wishing to contribute and progress than many a HP graduate. Whilst true that ex mil commanders of old sometimes had a horrendous attitude I can say from experience that the same still exists within the large helicopter companies in the offshore and SAR games but is now perpetuated by non ex mil people who seem to make the point that they suffered in the past therefore everybody else should have to. Indeed the most arrogant and condescending in my experience all came from a pure civilian background so it works both ways. Knowledge is power and all that.
As for qualifications and experience the only worry to me is where those of distant previous S61 SAR experience, sometimes only as P2, get parachuted into positions as their offshore experience, while beneficial, and previous SAR time are believed to suffice for currency and type experience. The game has changed a lot and the goalposts have moved a long way since Bristow last conducted SAR in the UK or Ireland. It is certainly a far more intricate and complex task with modern technology and capabilities than the relatively simple days of the 'sticky bun'.
Devils Advocate.....
As for qualifications and experience the only worry to me is where those of distant previous S61 SAR experience, sometimes only as P2, get parachuted into positions as their offshore experience, while beneficial, and previous SAR time are believed to suffice for currency and type experience. The game has changed a lot and the goalposts have moved a long way since Bristow last conducted SAR in the UK or Ireland. It is certainly a far more intricate and complex task with modern technology and capabilities than the relatively simple days of the 'sticky bun'.
Devils Advocate.....
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Bristow have picked up 6 P1 Sar commanders from CHC Ireland. The 6 worked for developing assets on the CHC Ireland transition team. All are ex RN & RAF Sar commanders with civil SAR and IR rating to boot. Bristow will be supplying them with S92 rating and give them the required hours via O&G flying before they go on the UK SAR contract.
CHC Ireland will also have at least 36 S92 qualified pilots by tie end of the year. Some with an eye on possible employment with Bristow.
CHC Ireland will also have at least 36 S92 qualified pilots by tie end of the year. Some with an eye on possible employment with Bristow.
Just that it takes a bit more interest in 'the job' than 'how big a house and how new a car I've got' which was usually the topic of conversation in Aberdeen when I was there
HC
No you are not right I think that is a typical "civilian, chip on shoulder remark!"
During my training they were looking for flying ability foremost - my course started with 16 - all of whom had been through the UAS system so were assessed as able to fly - but 8 of those got chopped as not making the grade once the ability to operate, rather than just fly, an a/c became of greater importance. So nobody was an also ran as you quaintly put it. The assessment for allocation to future roles was then made on 2 accounts - ability to fly and ability to operate as a captain as soon as one reached a Squadron. Those who had good captaincy skills went to single seat FJ and helicopters as at that time all RAF helicopters were single pilot. Good captaincy skills were essential as even as a first tourist one could be working alone and away from supervision be asked to do all sorts of tasks by the Army!! I arrived on my 1st Squadron as a Captain with approx 290hrs.
RAF selection and training was tough and you only got through on ability so your childish "also ran" comment perhaps reflects on you rather than contributing to the debate.
HF
I not right in thinking that at least for the RAF, during initial training the hotshots go to fast jets, the also-rans go on to helis? So not exactly the cream of the crop!
During my training they were looking for flying ability foremost - my course started with 16 - all of whom had been through the UAS system so were assessed as able to fly - but 8 of those got chopped as not making the grade once the ability to operate, rather than just fly, an a/c became of greater importance. So nobody was an also ran as you quaintly put it. The assessment for allocation to future roles was then made on 2 accounts - ability to fly and ability to operate as a captain as soon as one reached a Squadron. Those who had good captaincy skills went to single seat FJ and helicopters as at that time all RAF helicopters were single pilot. Good captaincy skills were essential as even as a first tourist one could be working alone and away from supervision be asked to do all sorts of tasks by the Army!! I arrived on my 1st Squadron as a Captain with approx 290hrs.
RAF selection and training was tough and you only got through on ability so your childish "also ran" comment perhaps reflects on you rather than contributing to the debate.
HF
No you are not right I think that is a typical "civilian, chip on shoulder remark!"
During my training they were looking for flying ability foremost - my course started with 16 - all of whom had been through the UAS system so were assessed as able to fly - but 8 of those got chopped as not making the grade once the ability to operate, rather than just fly, an a/c became of greater importance. So nobody was an also ran as you quaintly put it. The assessment for allocation to future roles was then made on 2 accounts - ability to fly and ability to operate as a captain as soon as one reached a Squadron. Those who had good captaincy skills went to single seat FJ and helicopters as at that time all RAF helicopters were single pilot. Good captaincy skills were essential as even as a first tourist one could be working alone and away from supervision be asked to do all sorts of tasks by the Army!! I arrived on my 1st Squadron as a Captain with approx 290hrs.
RAF selection and training was tough and you only got through on ability so your childish "also ran" comment perhaps reflects on you rather than contributing to the debate.
During my training they were looking for flying ability foremost - my course started with 16 - all of whom had been through the UAS system so were assessed as able to fly - but 8 of those got chopped as not making the grade once the ability to operate, rather than just fly, an a/c became of greater importance. So nobody was an also ran as you quaintly put it. The assessment for allocation to future roles was then made on 2 accounts - ability to fly and ability to operate as a captain as soon as one reached a Squadron. Those who had good captaincy skills went to single seat FJ and helicopters as at that time all RAF helicopters were single pilot. Good captaincy skills were essential as even as a first tourist one could be working alone and away from supervision be asked to do all sorts of tasks by the Army!! I arrived on my 1st Squadron as a Captain with approx 290hrs.
RAF selection and training was tough and you only got through on ability so your childish "also ran" comment perhaps reflects on you rather than contributing to the debate.
Whether or not I have a chip really doesn't matter since I already have a job with Bristow, Bristow already has won the SAR contract, defined it training programmes etc etc. The question of chips is rather more significant for those who may be seeking employment with the UK's soon-to-be only SAR provider.
I am not in the "SAR division" so probably of no consequence to me personally, but I still have a slight dread of a large influx of SAR gods with superiority complexes who will exhaust themselves saying "we should do it like This - as we did in the military" and pouting and sulking when they don't get their way, rather than just getting on with the job as defined in Bristow's SAR ops manual. Hopefully I am quite wrong, but it is the tone of some contributers on this thread that makes me think otherwise!
Last edited by HeliComparator; 10th Apr 2013 at 15:34.
can you not read HC, subtlety not your strong point? Thread Starter
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BRS latest update on UK SAR. Might answer some of the rumour mill stuff
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...F8VHlwZT0z&t=1
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...F8VHlwZT0z&t=1