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UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2

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Old 2nd Oct 2012, 17:39
  #641 (permalink)  

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One could read from your post that your encouraging your crew to fly unviable jobs and influencing the decision making of those that "should" be making the deployment decisions, and thus have brought down the efficiency of your unit and perhaps been part of the problem that has allowed NPAS to come in and units to be closed. One could read and ask, how many viable jobs have you missed out on when flying on week jobs with little or no chance of success.
morris, if you would do the decent thing and read my post before commenting, you would have read me say..
"I don't know about how others feel when doing one of your 'simple box ticking jobs',..."
...which of course means we are out on the job. (the clue is the word 'doing') Not my decision to deploy mate, I'm just the driver

Other than the aviation side of things, I have no deployment authority and as for the efficiency of the unit coming into question, the fact that we are already airborne makes us more efficient, as our reaction time is significantly quicker.

In direct answer to your question.."How many viable jobs have you missed out on when flying on week jobs with little or no chance of success."...I can honestly answer, None, think of it as prioritising at source


I wrote JUST in big letters, in case it got missed.
Thank you, and I typed this slowly to help you out.
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Old 2nd Oct 2012, 18:01
  #642 (permalink)  

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We need to judge the success of a unit, and in the future, NPAS, not just on how many searches are "attended".
Not how many incidents are "attended"...
But on actual results.
ie. direct ARRESTS
Vehicles LOCATED
Missing persons FOUND

not on how many boxes get ticked.
It clearly reads "just".
I wrote JUST in big letters, in case it got missed.
What it does read, (leaving out the 'just') is;

'We need to judge the success of a unit, and in the future NPAS, on the numbers of searches and incidents attended, direct arrests made, vehicles located and missing persons found, not on how many boxes get ticked.'


Unfortunately for your argument, in all of those examples you give, there is a box labelled "Request ASU" awaiting a tick.
Deploying on a box ticker gets the ac airborne allowing a higher level of response and leads to the direct arrests, located vehicles and the found mispers you are after. In the management world of your bean counters, decision makers and guillotine lever holders, ticked boxes are good

In a region where multiple jobs can come thick and fast once you're up, launching on a 'box ticker' makes sense. However, in a more quiet region, I can see your point.
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Old 2nd Oct 2012, 18:12
  #643 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry but I speed read most of your posts, I do however agree with them, I work at a busy unit (now region) and get more quality jobs after lifting for the almost no hoper than I do waiting in the office.
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Old 2nd Oct 2012, 19:03
  #644 (permalink)  
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I don't know if my unit is quiet or not..?I've only worked in the one unit.
We fly 1200 hrs a year pretty much every year. Is that quiet..?

I fully agree with you both.
You do get decent jobs once airborne due to speed of response. That's exactly how we work.
We appear to be comnenting about things I haven't said ??

All I was saying is lets not lose sight of core police work during all this.
I dont see why units would have issues with publishing arrest figures to compare a before and after NPAS..??

And I haven't said we're not lifting to unviable jobs on the hope of a lucky spot or a chance to deploy to another better quality job. Our existing command and control system is red hot and our cops on the ground call us direct when a job is happening too.

Anything else you want to talk about that I haven't said...?
 
Old 2nd Oct 2012, 19:07
  #645 (permalink)  

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Without losing touch with what is going on away from our keyboards and comfy couches. Well done for all your efforts so far to everyone involved at Dyfed Powys and South Wales ASU's, not forgetting the RAF from Chivenor.

Take care out there tonight
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Old 2nd Oct 2012, 19:18
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Hear hear
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Old 2nd Oct 2012, 21:31
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From one of the bbc news web pages

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19800140

Overhead the rumblings of a police helicopter and the Wales Air Ambulance can be heard.
Poor journalism, mis ID, happened to be passing on a different task, or making use of every available asset?

Not personally heard of air ambulances being used for this previously in the uk but happy to be corrected.

SW

Last edited by Spanish Waltzer; 2nd Oct 2012 at 21:33.
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Old 2nd Oct 2012, 22:39
  #648 (permalink)  

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Is the NPAS Control room involved in Wales at all?

I threw down the rune stones and reckon that the offer of a fixed wing, the coordination of 2 helicopters on site, mutual aid to cover for the ac on task, as well as mutual aid cover for the rest of Wales if required, was made with 2 phone calls taking 3 minutes, without it.

You could say that we are seeing true borderless tasking, without the regional borders, at an international level, with absolutely no NPAS involvement.

Seems a bit much to spend £1.6 mill on a national control room, when we can see this complicated use of police air assets organised in the maximum time allowed for song in the Eurovision Song Contest, by those on the shop floor who actually know what is needed and how to achieve it.

To put this 'quiet' control room into context, it costs £1.6 mill to run a 20 hr air support unit.

Time to put the stones away
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 07:34
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To put this 'quiet' control room into context, it costs £1.6 mill to run a 20 hr air support unit.
BARGAIN ! - funded by "just" a fraction over 10% of the Annual projected savings of £15 million

There's nothing else eating / eaten into the remaining £13.4 million is there


Last edited by Coconutty; 3rd Oct 2012 at 07:39.
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 08:15
  #650 (permalink)  

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There's nothing else eating / eaten into the remaining £13.4 million is there
Not quite sure how many extra people are employed by NPAS or what the pay scales are.

Last edited by SilsoeSid; 3rd Oct 2012 at 08:16.
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 08:29
  #651 (permalink)  

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Have You Got What it Takes?

Not seen this before!
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publica...as?view=Binary

The number of bases used to provide air support is planned to fall from 30 to 22, but they will be based where they can offer air support to the whole country. This will mean that 97% of the population will still be within 20 minutes’ flying time.
97% or 98%...what's 600,000 people between partners :roll eyes:

Is it just coincidence that (bearing in mind NPAS want to get rid of Sheffield ASU) 600,000 people is around the population of the Sheffield urban area?
List of urban areas in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 09:59
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I have learned that the Chilterns with their 2 helicopters where always one was available for 20.5-21.5hrs per day every day cost only £2.1 million now that is a bargain.
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 16:19
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Sid, you know as well as I do that co-ordination on scene can only be done directly between those assets there, regardless of where the control room is - or was that your point?
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 18:00
  #654 (permalink)  

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That was one point cr@b, the other being that the gaps left were covered by neighbouring forces... without the use a control room.
I wonder how the West Yorkshire Control Centre would get on with the ARCC

Hope last night went safely enough for you all
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Old 3rd Oct 2012, 21:53
  #655 (permalink)  

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Wow, anyone watching Newsnight?
I wonder how many of the points being raised about the rail fiasco could be raised here!

BBC iPlayer - Search :newsnight
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Old 6th Oct 2012, 08:04
  #656 (permalink)  

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http://www.apccs.police.uk/fileUploa..._June/NPAS.pdf

It is of note that in responding to the initial draft NPAS National Collaboration Agreement, police authorities raised concerns regarding the lack of up to date local delivery and financial information which will enable police authorities to consider the proposal fully. The concern being that police authorities by law, must obtain fair value for any assets they dispose of or transfer; and that having seen no business case or financial details, Treasurers would not be in a position to advise whether the transfer is appropriate or whether the financial model makes sense and is capable of delivering the savings claimed.
"..by law,"
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Old 7th Oct 2012, 09:49
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Seems to me this npas lark is an idea not generated by any police force or police authority , but more likely from a think tank full of tefal men (and women)

Has anyone briefed the press regarding the cost of the drones npas alludes too ?

Npas hope to save £15,000,000. Npas director who clearly knows a lot about air support needs told a predator is around £80,000,000 and probably a good time to mention it cannot see through cloud. Unlike really expensive helicopters who can operate under it, oh and to the detriment of our fixed wing options who also don't do 600' in the dark.

Consultation -

2.
a. A conference at which advice is given or views are exchanged.
b. A meeting between physicians to discuss the diagnosis or treatment of a case.
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Old 7th Oct 2012, 13:03
  #658 (permalink)  
 
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The reference by Alex Marshall to UAVs last week was probably an unfortunate distration of attention.

It seems that he gave an interview to a newspaper some days before the launch day and either that got mixed up with the NPAS launch blurb in the tv cutting room or he was 'ambushed' during the tv interviews with it. It was not part of the launch day text or direction. I did not hear everything the tv interviewer said so I am uncertain about the ambush bit.

NPAS UAVs are not on the menu - if only because they are ridiculously expensive - but no-one is wearing a blindfold on them. As I guess you would expect they are being briefed on the European project that is similar to the now defenct [but equally expensive] South Coast Project. Keeping an open mind does not sign cheques.

From NPAS point of view though the non-pilots who fly them are not likely to start up a thread on Rotorheads are they!
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Old 11th Oct 2012, 15:50
  #659 (permalink)  

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Police refused to launch helicopter search which may have saved hanged man’s life because it was 20 minutes before the end of their shift

A police helicopter which could have saved a young man's life was not sent up because staff were due to go off duty, an inquest heard.
Officers, family and friends were desperately searching on the ground for 21-year-old Danny Cavill who had threatened to harm himself after a night out.
Mr Cavill was still alive when a request was put in to South Yorkshire Police for a helicopter to help find him but night-time air support staff declined as their shift was due to end 20 minutes later.
An official investigation discovered that because 'a life was at risk' the shift should have been extended by an hour and Danny, who hanged himself, could have been saved.
However, a little more information;

Chief Insp Butler outlined a series of mistakes by the force and said another helicopter could have been called in from neighbouring forces but the call was never made.
He said the incident should have been classed as an 'immediate priority' and the police call centre handler did not elicit enough information about Danny’s plight.
An expert search officer was not contacted and cell-site analysis was not deployed which could have pinpointed Danny’s position within 200 metres and narrowed down the search parameters.
Mr Butler also said the police sergeant in charge of the search was working on a 'flawed assessment' passed to him second-hand from the family.
The Rotherham hearing was told Danny, who was drunk, was ejected from the Liquid nightclub in Rotherham town centre about 2am on Saturday, May 7 last year.
He phoned his best friend Josh Hill, 21, in a distressed manner and told him: 'Nobody likes me, I can’t get in contact with anyone. I’m going to do something stupid and I’m walking by the rail track now.'

After Mr Hill raised the alarm police were called in and searchers initially went to a railway bridge where Danny had previously been found when drunk before the search switched to the golf club.
Sgt Kevin Bradley, who was later reprimanded, said the family did not believe Danny would carry out the threat to harm himself and he only rated the incident as 'medium risk' so did not call out the consortium helicopter after the South Yorkshire chopper failed to get airborne.

Danny’s father Stephen said: 'He liked going out on Friday nights with his mates. He used to like a drink and fell asleep in different places. That is what we thought had happened that night.'
Coroner comments;

'The question of the helicopter was not properly pursued when it should have been. It was available to be deployed had the proper questions been posed.'

Could it be that the shift had ended before the right questions were asked, let alone answered?

Anyway, isn't Rotherham within 20 minutes of air support 24/7?
Or is Rotherham the 3% not covered
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Old 11th Oct 2012, 20:10
  #660 (permalink)  
 
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Was pilots discretion to extend a FTP mentioned?
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