UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
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The DP CP job is fixed term and finishes in June 2014, according to the advert. That could easily be the planned time for DP to join the New World that is NPAS.
The new DP police commissioner has declared he wants to keep the hele after a life-saving CASEVAC.
Can anyone assist where the planned plank to cover DP would be based? In that area there are NO IFR airfields, very few weather reporting stations, and everywhere closes after about 1700. Transits from Manchester would mean even missing persons had died of boredom, before they were "rescued".
The new DP police commissioner has declared he wants to keep the hele after a life-saving CASEVAC.
Can anyone assist where the planned plank to cover DP would be based? In that area there are NO IFR airfields, very few weather reporting stations, and everywhere closes after about 1700. Transits from Manchester would mean even missing persons had died of boredom, before they were "rescued".
My recollection of the Wales fixed wing [and I have little doubt that it will be covering substantially more than that] is that in 'Plan A' of the launch 2 years ago it did not exist, Dyfed lost the [non-standard A109 airframe] without replacement and S&EW came off the [non-standard] lease arrangement to be replaced by one of the displaced airframes from England.
Meanwhile the temporary contract for Ollie Dismore had expired and he went off to Oxford for a while [therefore hands off the tiller] and the Dyfed fixed wing was created as a solution by the remaining team members faced with an intrasigent Dyfed Powys.
I have little doubt that matters like local weather, IFR etc were way above their pay grade. The result was that the Wales fixed wing solution [Plan B] was to be housed at a small airfield in the extreme of west Wales near Haverfordwest. 'Small airfield' is mainly allowing for the option to get airborne quickly without the need for runway queus.
The rest comes back to the basics of police and IFR. Most practitioners still stick to the assumption that if you cannot see it with your eyes its not worth undertaking the police mission. IFR is a 'get you home' safety capability in case of flying into IMC rather than an operational need.
The favoured fixed wing [wherever it is actually based] is a Tecnam and I believe that is not IFR anyway.
Meanwhile the temporary contract for Ollie Dismore had expired and he went off to Oxford for a while [therefore hands off the tiller] and the Dyfed fixed wing was created as a solution by the remaining team members faced with an intrasigent Dyfed Powys.
I have little doubt that matters like local weather, IFR etc were way above their pay grade. The result was that the Wales fixed wing solution [Plan B] was to be housed at a small airfield in the extreme of west Wales near Haverfordwest. 'Small airfield' is mainly allowing for the option to get airborne quickly without the need for runway queus.
The rest comes back to the basics of police and IFR. Most practitioners still stick to the assumption that if you cannot see it with your eyes its not worth undertaking the police mission. IFR is a 'get you home' safety capability in case of flying into IMC rather than an operational need.
The favoured fixed wing [wherever it is actually based] is a Tecnam and I believe that is not IFR anyway.
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PAN
I think your facts stand up to scrutiny, I would join with you in the assertion that the fixed wing, though perhaps based for priority use for DP would as the owners name (NPAS) suggest, be a national asset to be used for the longer term, less rush and go scenarios.
I would add that I still believe that the lack of any joined up IFR transit capacity in the NPAS rotary fleet will continue to bite them where it hurts particularly when each aircraft is covering much greater areas than previously. Don't get me started on lack of fuel options when the civi airfields have closed for the night.
I think your facts stand up to scrutiny, I would join with you in the assertion that the fixed wing, though perhaps based for priority use for DP would as the owners name (NPAS) suggest, be a national asset to be used for the longer term, less rush and go scenarios.
I would add that I still believe that the lack of any joined up IFR transit capacity in the NPAS rotary fleet will continue to bite them where it hurts particularly when each aircraft is covering much greater areas than previously. Don't get me started on lack of fuel options when the civi airfields have closed for the night.
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TheDog,
Not sure it matters when North West join as they're pretty much operating as a fully formed NPAS region, they could have joined first but would not have shown savings to any great extent compared to the SE region.
Not sure it matters when North West join as they're pretty much operating as a fully formed NPAS region, they could have joined first but would not have shown savings to any great extent compared to the SE region.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
NPAS: Forces In Disagreement Over Cost
Two police forces refused to sign up to the National Police Air Service (NPAS) after their flight contracts were changed at the last minute, PoliceOracle.com has been told.
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Happy to be corrected on this one, those 2 forces were collaborative partners of force helicopters rather than the single county owned and operated model. Will be interesting to see how their usage of flight hours changes compared to that of the single owner/operators. 2 counties near me have both dropped their flying hour requirements since closing their own operations. One force was flying 750 pa prior and now requires/budgets for 500, that with the nearest aircraft (if not on a job in the other 2 counties) at least 20 minutes away, someone worked hard to find out which 250 hours were being wasted year after year.........
Amongst its many requirements, NPAS requires statistics about every aspect of the operations and finances, these will in due course be availible for scrutiny and will prove the savings of both wasted flying hours (prior to NPAS) and money.
Amongst its many requirements, NPAS requires statistics about every aspect of the operations and finances, these will in due course be availible for scrutiny and will prove the savings of both wasted flying hours (prior to NPAS) and money.
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Art - Do you actually work in Air Support at the force "near you" that you are referring to ?
"Wasted" - is that a fact or just an assumption ?
How were the hours "wasted" exactly ?
I know of a force "near ME" that has been quite content to have their Police helicopter airborne
conducting pro-active patrols at identified times over identifed areas, even if there wasn't a specific task to attend to.
It's difficult to measure the success of such patrols - Is there a reduction in crime
as a result of the helicopter patrols or not, would crime increase even more withotu the patrols,
how do you measure the results of Public stisfaction in relation to such a patrol etc etc.
If, as a result of financial pressures and cutbacks, thsoe patrolling hours were withdrawn,
it wouldn't mean that they were "wasted hours" at all, and I would love to hear
more detail of what those wasteful flights you refer to actually involved ?
As for
... it would be nice if they played the game too, and had provided the financial details for Forces to examine,
and make meaningful decisions on the implications of joining, before being forced to do so
someone worked hard to find out which 250 hours were being wasted year after year.........
How were the hours "wasted" exactly ?
I know of a force "near ME" that has been quite content to have their Police helicopter airborne
conducting pro-active patrols at identified times over identifed areas, even if there wasn't a specific task to attend to.
It's difficult to measure the success of such patrols - Is there a reduction in crime
as a result of the helicopter patrols or not, would crime increase even more withotu the patrols,
how do you measure the results of Public stisfaction in relation to such a patrol etc etc.
If, as a result of financial pressures and cutbacks, thsoe patrolling hours were withdrawn,
it wouldn't mean that they were "wasted hours" at all, and I would love to hear
more detail of what those wasteful flights you refer to actually involved ?
As for
Amongst its many requirements, NPAS requires statistics about every aspect of the operations and finances...
and make meaningful decisions on the implications of joining, before being forced to do so
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Coco,
I don't work at either of those forces air support because they've 'CLOSED'
I did work at the unit that has picked up the additional work, so I'm very qualified to express an opinion on matters in this region. So I ask again, why do forces feel they need less hours from a neighbouring force when they get rid of their own aircraft?
Read my post again and you'll find an element of sarcasm in it........
I don't work at either of those forces air support because they've 'CLOSED'
I did work at the unit that has picked up the additional work, so I'm very qualified to express an opinion on matters in this region. So I ask again, why do forces feel they need less hours from a neighbouring force when they get rid of their own aircraft?
Read my post again and you'll find an element of sarcasm in it........
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Art,
Read it, and read it again ( and again to make sure ) but I don't see any sarcasm there,
perhaps you need to make your "sarcastic" comments a little clearer ...
Not quite sure why you're giving the Wagging Finger either -
or is that also meant to be sarcatic
Read it, and read it again ( and again to make sure ) but I don't see any sarcasm there,
perhaps you need to make your "sarcastic" comments a little clearer ...
Not quite sure why you're giving the Wagging Finger either -
or is that also meant to be sarcatic
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Coco,
Tis' the internet-I guess what I see as providing a subtle bit of sarcasm loses effect in black and white , don't you think it's a mystery how a unit (or more) can happily exist for years doing 750 pa and then at the stroke of midnight make do with 500 from much further away and sold as having an improved and more efficient service?
Anyway, surprised you're still posting, looks like most have gone away or been warned off......
Tis' the internet-I guess what I see as providing a subtle bit of sarcasm loses effect in black and white , don't you think it's a mystery how a unit (or more) can happily exist for years doing 750 pa and then at the stroke of midnight make do with 500 from much further away and sold as having an improved and more efficient service?
Anyway, surprised you're still posting, looks like most have gone away or been warned off......
Last edited by Art of flight; 6th Dec 2012 at 11:57.
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Well having now worked under NPAS for 2 months I can finally see things moving in the right direction which is nice to see after all the serious stresses and strains every single bobby and pilot have been under the last 18months......but the hill is still very steep and long.
And no, none of us have been told in any shape or form that we are not allowed to communicate with the outside world about what's going on at the coalface.
And no, none of us have been told in any shape or form that we are not allowed to communicate with the outside world about what's going on at the coalface.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I think we are all too dizzy from going round the same old circles so many times. 
To pick up on 'wasted hours'.
How does one quantify wasted hours? You'll never know how much effect just the noise of the aircraft has on cutting crime.
Much like you can't quantify the crime cutting effect of a bobby on the beat. Is a bobby simply walking around a deterrent, or wasted hours? I'd like to point out that the publics biggest call is that they want more bobbies out on the beat!
Doesn't that tell you something
To pick up on 'wasted hours'.
How does one quantify wasted hours? You'll never know how much effect just the noise of the aircraft has on cutting crime.
Much like you can't quantify the crime cutting effect of a bobby on the beat. Is a bobby simply walking around a deterrent, or wasted hours? I'd like to point out that the publics biggest call is that they want more bobbies out on the beat!
Doesn't that tell you something
Despite being retired for a number of years now, I am still frquently asked to give talks on Police Air Support.
I don't think that many Senior Police officers today realise just how popular the Police helicopter is/was with the public.
It was brought home to me some time ago, when somone in the hall I was speaking at, had the sheer temerity to compain about the noise of the helicopter! He was rapidly put down by a number of old age pensioners who told him in no uncertain manner that the helicopter made them feel safe at night.
It would seem that many old people worry about crime at night, especially now that "the bobby on the beat" is a thing of the past. They cannot hear, and are therefore not comforted by the patrol car passing their door. But they do hear the helicopter, and know that the police are up there watching over them!
A bit sad I know, but it is true! So I agree with the comment above about wasted hours. Those hours over the town or City are not wasted, they are providing a valuable service in bolstering a waning confidence in our service and also increasing the pressure on those intent on committing crime.
tigerfish
I don't think that many Senior Police officers today realise just how popular the Police helicopter is/was with the public.
It was brought home to me some time ago, when somone in the hall I was speaking at, had the sheer temerity to compain about the noise of the helicopter! He was rapidly put down by a number of old age pensioners who told him in no uncertain manner that the helicopter made them feel safe at night.
It would seem that many old people worry about crime at night, especially now that "the bobby on the beat" is a thing of the past. They cannot hear, and are therefore not comforted by the patrol car passing their door. But they do hear the helicopter, and know that the police are up there watching over them!
A bit sad I know, but it is true! So I agree with the comment above about wasted hours. Those hours over the town or City are not wasted, they are providing a valuable service in bolstering a waning confidence in our service and also increasing the pressure on those intent on committing crime.
tigerfish
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
https://mobile.twitter.com/NPASGOD
Apparently after Richard Watson chose his NPASGOD Tw@ter name, he registered the Tw@ter names for the regions;
@NPASPLEBSSOUTHEAST
@NPASPLEBSNORTHWEST
@NPASPLEBSNORTHEAST
@NPASPLEBSCENTRAL
@NPASPLEBSSOUTHWEST
@NPASPLEBSMET
As long as pecking orders are in place and you know where you're @ .... sorted!
Apparently after Richard Watson chose his NPASGOD Tw@ter name, he registered the Tw@ter names for the regions;
@NPASPLEBSSOUTHEAST
@NPASPLEBSNORTHWEST
@NPASPLEBSNORTHEAST
@NPASPLEBSCENTRAL
@NPASPLEBSSOUTHWEST
@NPASPLEBSMET
As long as pecking orders are in place and you know where you're @ .... sorted!
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 7th Dec 2012 at 00:45. Reason: Tw@ter in its normal form comes out as Pprune!
Mere presence certainly works - both on the ground and in the air.
I have seen the 'suspects' depart at the sight of a uniform lingering on foot on many many occasions and have always held that such subtleties are completely lost on the ranks of ACPO and their like simply because in their headlong rush for money and ranking they actually forgot what real policing is about. You cannot count 'no crime' on your fingers but you can see it - its called tranquility and public safety.
Although I was never a 24/7/365 air support person I was aware of a number of instances where a station has rung in to thank the air unit for their help in getting the suspects to give themselves up .... each time the aircraft was merely in transit to base and was totally unaware of the situation below. If I tripped over a few there must have been many.
Street policing works [when you can get it] and so does air cover [when you can get it].
I have seen the 'suspects' depart at the sight of a uniform lingering on foot on many many occasions and have always held that such subtleties are completely lost on the ranks of ACPO and their like simply because in their headlong rush for money and ranking they actually forgot what real policing is about. You cannot count 'no crime' on your fingers but you can see it - its called tranquility and public safety.
Although I was never a 24/7/365 air support person I was aware of a number of instances where a station has rung in to thank the air unit for their help in getting the suspects to give themselves up .... each time the aircraft was merely in transit to base and was totally unaware of the situation below. If I tripped over a few there must have been many.
Street policing works [when you can get it] and so does air cover [when you can get it].
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I've heard that there will be localised NPAS offices in different towns, their tw@ter names will be;
Poole - @NPASPOO
Penistone - @NPASPENIS
Knutsford - @NPASKNUTS
Milford Haven - @NPASMILF
Cockermouth - @NPASCOCK
No plans yet for an NPAS office in Scunthorpe
Poole - @NPASPOO
Penistone - @NPASPENIS
Knutsford - @NPASKNUTS
Milford Haven - @NPASMILF
Cockermouth - @NPASCOCK
No plans yet for an NPAS office in Scunthorpe