Cumbria Helicopter crash discussion
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Silsoesid..
Christ man you still at it???....leave the guy in peace FFS!! 
Quote:
His comments and attitude about risk....sums it all up really !
His comments and attitude about risk....sums it all up really !
If you want tributes and condolences may I suggest you post on the relevant thread.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/445...ndolences.html
As I said earlier on this thread "It's a real shame that Mark had to die to enable such a huge discussion about Flight Safety and I'm sure all our thoughts are with his family and friends."
For all our regulations, we have a system which is flawed and must be corrected. The facts in the AAIB report speak for themselves. If this aircraft had killed and injured people other than the pilot, the CAA would have a severe public problem on their hands.
I think what I'm saying is that aircraft based in EASA land must be maintained in EASA land. And maybe the same should apply to pilots.
I think what I'm saying is that aircraft based in EASA land must be maintained in EASA land. And maybe the same should apply to pilots.
Avoid imitations
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It's difficult to know what to say to that AAIB report....except that there is more to being a good pilot than stick and rudder skills. In aviation, the rules are usually there for a reason.
Appalling!
Appalling!
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jim ball
i dont understand your comment above the pilot had a licence [uk] from easa land as you put it, and the aircraft was from easa land and maintained in easa land ?
I think what I'm saying is that aircraft based in EASA land must be maintained in EASA land. And maybe the same should apply to pilots.
Depends on how you interpret 'maintained!' Timexed components and falsified Form 1s don't really count! Neither does flying outside of your licence priviliges count as using a UK/JAR licence.
Last edited by 212man; 11th Oct 2012 at 12:00.
It's like a flag of convenience on a merchant vessel designed to get around safety regulations in one country by registering it in another.
Darwinian selection in action I'm afraid - and not for the first time
As shy says it is not all about stick and rudder skills - a mil pilot with 2-3 years operational experience would not have just jumped into the air and cuffed it like that.
Darwinian selection in action I'm afraid - and not for the first time
As shy says it is not all about stick and rudder skills - a mil pilot with 2-3 years operational experience would not have just jumped into the air and cuffed it like that.
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So he was flying a hungarian registered heli with a uk licence?
From the AAIB report:
He held a crew member certificate issued by the Hungarian Civil Aviation Administration which validated his PPL for flight in Hungarian-registered aircraft.
md 600: I stand corrected. Hungary joined the EU in 2004.
But still the system is flawed. And I honestly don't know how we can guard against faked papers and wrong components and pilots with the wrong records & qualifications.
All I know is that if this type of event kills innocents, things will change rapidly.
Making all UK-based aircraft use approved UK maintenance organisations would at least help to stop the rot. And if the "flag of convenience" doesn't like it - then the aircraft cannot be based here.
But still the system is flawed. And I honestly don't know how we can guard against faked papers and wrong components and pilots with the wrong records & qualifications.
All I know is that if this type of event kills innocents, things will change rapidly.
Making all UK-based aircraft use approved UK maintenance organisations would at least help to stop the rot. And if the "flag of convenience" doesn't like it - then the aircraft cannot be based here.
Avoid imitations
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Perhaps the nanny state should prohibit ALL private helicopters!
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A tragic loss of life, and so unnecessary.
It is tempting to respond to any tragedy by contemplating new regulation. Usually what happens is that those who abide by the regulations end up having to jump through more, higher hoops and do more admin, and incur extra cost (and do less flying). Sadly, those who choose to ignore rules (generally created at least partly for their own benefit) will choose not to join (the rule following club), and at intervals will have "accidents".
There is a steady trickle of these accidents involving pilots (usually PPLs) who know better. The nature of helicopter flying is likely to attract them, because of the freedom associated with this sort of flying. It is the same thing that attracts us. Classic, almost archetypal examples of a pilot type, for CRM study consideration.
The only good thing about this event was that there were no passengers.
It is tempting to respond to any tragedy by contemplating new regulation. Usually what happens is that those who abide by the regulations end up having to jump through more, higher hoops and do more admin, and incur extra cost (and do less flying). Sadly, those who choose to ignore rules (generally created at least partly for their own benefit) will choose not to join (the rule following club), and at intervals will have "accidents".
There is a steady trickle of these accidents involving pilots (usually PPLs) who know better. The nature of helicopter flying is likely to attract them, because of the freedom associated with this sort of flying. It is the same thing that attracts us. Classic, almost archetypal examples of a pilot type, for CRM study consideration.
The only good thing about this event was that there were no passengers.
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Lowfat - what are you drinking? Get a grip, man!
Some motorcyclists crash for stupid reasons = do you want a ban?
Some swimmers drown for stupid reasons = do you want a ban?
Some horse riders die for sor stupid reasons = do you want a ban?
I have a PPL(H).
I have 2 aircraft - maintained in the UK to full commercial standard.
I have not crashed, busted airspace, bent an airframe, come close to bending an airframe
Why do you tar me with the same brush?
Go through the whole of the AAIB reports (over a period, I did read all of them to see what I could learn). Commercial operators sometimes do stupid things too, and sometimes they die. Do you propose to ban all Private and all commercial pilots?
Some motorcyclists crash for stupid reasons = do you want a ban?
Some swimmers drown for stupid reasons = do you want a ban?
Some horse riders die for sor stupid reasons = do you want a ban?
I have a PPL(H).
I have 2 aircraft - maintained in the UK to full commercial standard.
I have not crashed, busted airspace, bent an airframe, come close to bending an airframe
Why do you tar me with the same brush?
Go through the whole of the AAIB reports (over a period, I did read all of them to see what I could learn). Commercial operators sometimes do stupid things too, and sometimes they die. Do you propose to ban all Private and all commercial pilots?
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Ok, so wrong paperwork and poor maintenance. The crash was not related to either of these.
This was pilot error, pure and simple.
Nothing to do with where it was registered or maintained.
This was pilot error, pure and simple.
Nothing to do with where it was registered or maintained.
But you are not in the news are you? John
The Law abiding are always punished because of the :-
reckless
Arrogant
Cheapskates
At least commercial operators are regularly audited by both the feds and customers . If this helicopter had been audited by the feds (as they can audit any craft in the uk) perhaps this chancer would still be alive.Not flying but still alive.
The Law abiding are always punished because of the :-
reckless
Arrogant
Cheapskates
At least commercial operators are regularly audited by both the feds and customers . If this helicopter had been audited by the feds (as they can audit any craft in the uk) perhaps this chancer would still be alive.Not flying but still alive.
Last edited by lowfat; 11th Oct 2012 at 17:31.
Chopjock - the keyword is 'attitude'.
What's my attitude towards flying?
What's your attitude towards flying?
If we don't know each other we can only make assessments from evidence out there. We may get things wrong. We may occasionally break/push the rule book. Does that make us bad people or pilots? Habitually breaking, flaunting and ignoring rules does make us bad pilots because as a pilot we are the captain and we are duty bound to conduct ourselves in an appropriate manner - captaincy and airmanship includes a wide range of things that clearly, from the report were either missed or ignored by the pilot concerned.
Complacency is one of the biggest killers!
What's my attitude towards flying?
What's your attitude towards flying?
If we don't know each other we can only make assessments from evidence out there. We may get things wrong. We may occasionally break/push the rule book. Does that make us bad people or pilots? Habitually breaking, flaunting and ignoring rules does make us bad pilots because as a pilot we are the captain and we are duty bound to conduct ourselves in an appropriate manner - captaincy and airmanship includes a wide range of things that clearly, from the report were either missed or ignored by the pilot concerned.
Complacency is one of the biggest killers!
Finding a legal 'loophole' like this is one thing. Not being diligent and conscientious when it comes to maintenance and administration is another.
Neither of these things necessarily kills people, as pointed out in the AAIB report. However, if this behaviour is symptomatic of an attitude that also reflects a lack of respect for those things that do kill people, then the issue is in a different category altogether.
Once again (as is so often the case), ego got in the way of common sense and ability. It sounds very much as though the screen misted up and/or Mark went IMC. I know the crash site quite well and without moonlight, it's absolutely pitch black at night. Add high winds, heavy rain, an unqualified pilot for whom 'no' isn't an option, and the cast is set for an inevitable outcome. He isn't the first and he won't be the last.
PS When Mark bought HA-LFB, he tried to sell me his previous Gazelle. Insurance through the UK was prohibitive and so the full details of the license/insurance 'loophole' and the availability of cheap spares, was explained. I didn't buy the aircraft. There are a few PPRuNers who know far more about this than me, including md 600 driver, who is probably the most knowledgable.
PPS I saw HA-LFB in the black hangar at Farnborough while the investigation was being conducted. It looked like a car that had been through a crushing machine. The AAIB has done a great job reconstructing the last movements with the limited available evidence.
Neither of these things necessarily kills people, as pointed out in the AAIB report. However, if this behaviour is symptomatic of an attitude that also reflects a lack of respect for those things that do kill people, then the issue is in a different category altogether.
Once again (as is so often the case), ego got in the way of common sense and ability. It sounds very much as though the screen misted up and/or Mark went IMC. I know the crash site quite well and without moonlight, it's absolutely pitch black at night. Add high winds, heavy rain, an unqualified pilot for whom 'no' isn't an option, and the cast is set for an inevitable outcome. He isn't the first and he won't be the last.
PS When Mark bought HA-LFB, he tried to sell me his previous Gazelle. Insurance through the UK was prohibitive and so the full details of the license/insurance 'loophole' and the availability of cheap spares, was explained. I didn't buy the aircraft. There are a few PPRuNers who know far more about this than me, including md 600 driver, who is probably the most knowledgable.
PPS I saw HA-LFB in the black hangar at Farnborough while the investigation was being conducted. It looked like a car that had been through a crushing machine. The AAIB has done a great job reconstructing the last movements with the limited available evidence.
The pilot completed a licence proficiency check with a freelance examiner, formerly a British military pilot, in July 2010. The examiner stated that he had conducted a number of proficiency checks with the pilot in recent years and considered him to be of above average flying ability, adding that his skill level was similar to that of a British military helicopter pilot of two or three years operational experience.
TT
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TT, Mark Weir an experienced pilot with a lot of hours & very capable of flying a Gazelle, Paul Spencer freshly qualified very low hours.
I cant see any conection other than same ship ??
I cant see any conection other than same ship ??
Last edited by jetbox 21; 12th Oct 2012 at 10:27.