Cumbria Helicopter crash discussion
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Cumbria Helicopter crash discussion
A sad loss. Noticeable lack of speculation here. Any reasons? Apart from condolences this is a place we can all learn valuable lessons.
.
Epiphany: I happen to agree with you but, I've noticed since joining PPRuNE just over 9 months ago, that PPRuNers are somewhat reticent to speculate on accidents/incidents (and I would have to say that this is especially the case when the event has taken place in the British Isles).
Part of this could be the large pecentage of UK readers on Rotorheads and the closer proximity therefore to domestic events - there are certain sensitivities which are quickly offended when someone takes a stab at what 'might have happened'.
I've noticed that in the past PPRuNers have started separate threads where speculation/probable causes can be discussed without offending those connected to the incident.
This thread seems to have focussed on being a tribute to someone who was clearly a great man but, like you, I always seek to derive understanding/lessons from tragedy .. just in case it might save someone else. In this regard I tender the following: I've read on the Gazelle thread that the Astazou is one of the most reliable turbines ever built - someone, somewhere said it had never experienced a failure (unlikely, but even if its somewhere close to the truth still makes it an impressive piece of kit). Assuming that LFB was in 'ship-shape' condition then I think (given the met report for the area) there is only one probable cause to consider.
Having said that .. one never knows. The AAIB could discover something totally unexpected. Nevertheless, such tragedies are always an opportunity to remind ourselves of the importance of maintaining safety and vigilance.
S.
Epiphany: I happen to agree with you but, I've noticed since joining PPRuNE just over 9 months ago, that PPRuNers are somewhat reticent to speculate on accidents/incidents (and I would have to say that this is especially the case when the event has taken place in the British Isles).
Part of this could be the large pecentage of UK readers on Rotorheads and the closer proximity therefore to domestic events - there are certain sensitivities which are quickly offended when someone takes a stab at what 'might have happened'.
I've noticed that in the past PPRuNers have started separate threads where speculation/probable causes can be discussed without offending those connected to the incident.
This thread seems to have focussed on being a tribute to someone who was clearly a great man but, like you, I always seek to derive understanding/lessons from tragedy .. just in case it might save someone else. In this regard I tender the following: I've read on the Gazelle thread that the Astazou is one of the most reliable turbines ever built - someone, somewhere said it had never experienced a failure (unlikely, but even if its somewhere close to the truth still makes it an impressive piece of kit). Assuming that LFB was in 'ship-shape' condition then I think (given the met report for the area) there is only one probable cause to consider.
Having said that .. one never knows. The AAIB could discover something totally unexpected. Nevertheless, such tragedies are always an opportunity to remind ourselves of the importance of maintaining safety and vigilance.
S.
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This is not a forum for NOK. It is a forum for pilots. If I owned a Gazelle I might be concerned. If I owned a Gazelle and I know that this accident happened at last light in bad weather then I may be less concerned. I will expect the AAIB report in 2012 at the earliest.
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Epiphany......No speculation because of the respect that most folk that knew Mark had of him....he was a character indeed but I guess one of the UK's most experianced mountain pilot's....after all he has commuted to work for the past 6 years on a near daily basis when weather permitted.
As for speculation lets not even go there.....in time I guess we can all read the relevant reports..............I for one though will miss his enthusiastic and cheery voice over the airwaves of "Scottish Information"
As for speculation lets not even go there.....in time I guess we can all read the relevant reports..............I for one though will miss his enthusiastic and cheery voice over the airwaves of "Scottish Information"
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
fishbangwollop,
I wouldn't go that way if I were you.
Even the very experienced Austrian Air Force instructor on our High Altitude Mountain Landing Course nearly piled in during a famil, and that was while we were still in the low mountains! I think I learnt that morning what my last words are going to be!
SS
I wouldn't go that way if I were you.
Even the very experienced Austrian Air Force instructor on our High Altitude Mountain Landing Course nearly piled in during a famil, and that was while we were still in the low mountains! I think I learnt that morning what my last words are going to be!
SS
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Aren't comments like fishbangwallops;
"No speculation because of the respect that most folk that knew Mark had of him....he was a character indeed but I guess one of the UK's most experianced mountain pilot's....after all he has commuted to work for the past 6 years on a near daily basis when weather permitted."
the reverse of any speculation and therefore just as bad as any speculation itself?
"No speculation because of the respect that most folk that knew Mark had of him....he was a character indeed but I guess one of the UK's most experianced mountain pilot's....after all he has commuted to work for the past 6 years on a near daily basis when weather permitted."
the reverse of any speculation and therefore just as bad as any speculation itself?
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I am not suggesting that flying in hilly terrain in reduced visibility had anything to do with this tragic accident but here is a link to remind those who may be interested of the dangers involved.
I for one would like to see less of these accidents that seem to occur on a regular basis.
I for one would like to see less of these accidents that seem to occur on a regular basis.
The truth is that not every driver has had an ephiphany when it comes to taking risks with wx. Mine came in '92 in PNG after losing six friends over a 12 month period in wx-related fatalities.
Just yesterday on the Nostalgia (G-TALY) thread I posted some historical blurb about G-BAKS and included the AAIB report documenting her CFIT. It makes for glum reading but .. the story was (sadly) predictable and follows about 20 others I can recall off the top of my head. The bottom line is, when VFR, we can never win out against a battle with weather.
S.
The fact is, the weather was shocking. Dark, poor viz, sleet and very gusty, high winds. Mark was an accomplished pilot and knew his machine and the surrounding area intimately, but there's little doubt in my mind that the Wx was a contributing factor. I've been to Honister many times and even the slightest wind is funneled down the valley which can catch the unwary off guard. If he had a technical problem, there would have been few choices when it came to getting down safely, even if it was VMC. Apparently, the crash site was just 200m away from the pad, so just a few seconds after lifting. If I was asked to speculate, I'd guess it was a technical problem, but given those conditions and low height over that terrain, poor Mark wasn't given much of a chance.
And for the record, I also have no doubt that Mark will be looking down on this thread and smiling. He'd be amused by the speculation
And for the record, I also have no doubt that Mark will be looking down on this thread and smiling. He'd be amused by the speculation
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The fact is, the weather was shocking. Dark, poor viz, sleet and very gusty, high winds. Mark was an accomplished pilot and knew his machine and the surrounding area intimately, but there's little doubt in my mind that the Wx was a contributing factor. I've been to Honister many times and even the slightest wind is funneled down the valley which can catch the unwary off guard.
If I was asked to speculate, I'd guess it was a technical problem,
If I was asked to speculate, I'd guess it was a technical problem,
Isn't that a prime example of the problems of speculation!
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Toptobottom. Thanks. That information combined with SS's videos are all I need to form my own opinion - which I am perfectly entitled to being the crass individual that I am.
Savoia - my own Epiphany was as an airgunner in a Lynx in Germany in 1982 when we hit the top of trees on a ridge line in cloud on a VFR flight. That pilot is now dead as are many more of my friends including AJ last year. The fact that a pilot of his experience can end up spread across a hillside shows that we can all make mistakes.
Weather plays a significant part in all of these accidents and most could be avoided with a simple glance out of the window and a check of the local conditions.
Savoia - my own Epiphany was as an airgunner in a Lynx in Germany in 1982 when we hit the top of trees on a ridge line in cloud on a VFR flight. That pilot is now dead as are many more of my friends including AJ last year. The fact that a pilot of his experience can end up spread across a hillside shows that we can all make mistakes.
Weather plays a significant part in all of these accidents and most could be avoided with a simple glance out of the window and a check of the local conditions.
Last edited by Epiphany; 18th Mar 2011 at 09:12.
Of course; everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, I wouldn't rely on the YT vids to form yours. Mark wasn't averse to taking risks and he enjoyed showing off, but without an audience and in adverse conditions, I can't think of anyone I'd rather have to fly me through those mountains.
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without an audience and in adverse conditions, I can't think of anyone I'd rather have to fly me through those mountains.
SS
The decision whether to fly or not is a different issue. The point I'm making is that Mark was a sound pilot and one should judge neither his decision process that night, nor his flying ability on some random YT clips.
The decision whether to fly or not is a different issue. The point I'm making is that Mark was a sound pilot and one should judge neither his decision process that night, nor his flying ability on some random YT clips.
I'm sorry but I do not understand the desire to gag pilots who wish to express their views about the environment/situation surrounding any accident.
The usefulness of debate can be illustrated by the Cougar accident thread where a number of misconceptions (about the capabilities of the aircraft, the necessity to listen to and understand previous lessons, the requirement to follow checks lists, and the dangers of ignoring escalating failures) were discussed - and all before the accident report was published.
It is a tribute to the contributions in that thread (and others) that it was referred to by the accident investigators.
Once a report is published, pilots with fertile minds no longer see the need to apply their deductive skills to finding the cause of the accident.
Bearing in mind that attitude/culture can play a large part in accidents, I think that the videos might have a bearing on the cause. I am reminded of the first responses to the Colin McRae accident and the attempt on that thread to silence speculation.
Jim
The usefulness of debate can be illustrated by the Cougar accident thread where a number of misconceptions (about the capabilities of the aircraft, the necessity to listen to and understand previous lessons, the requirement to follow checks lists, and the dangers of ignoring escalating failures) were discussed - and all before the accident report was published.
It is a tribute to the contributions in that thread (and others) that it was referred to by the accident investigators.
Once a report is published, pilots with fertile minds no longer see the need to apply their deductive skills to finding the cause of the accident.
Bearing in mind that attitude/culture can play a large part in accidents, I think that the videos might have a bearing on the cause. I am reminded of the first responses to the Colin McRae accident and the attempt on that thread to silence speculation.
Jim
Epiphany....I am with you. However I will not speculate openly as obviously it is frowned upon here.
Funny thing how every crash in recent years in the UK was piloted by "excellent", "conscientious", pilots who never pushed the limits. Seems like all of those who push the limits, or are bad pilots never crash.
Seems like speculation is all around us. The police normally only arrest those that they "believe" are guilty based upon their views and evidence collected. Some people are even proven innocent----but at some point in the chain, someone "speculated" that they were guilty of something.
For the record---If I ever crash, I beg all of you to speculate. Look at all the possible factors and if they point to me flying in bad weather, or some other act that I may have committed, then feel free to call me an ass---even if I perish in the accident--I have thick skin. Why you ask? Because, there may be some young pilot reading and can learn from a "speculated" mistake. If it turns out there was a mechanical issue, then learn from that too.
Someone more famous than me, (and I do not know who), once wrote:
Mistakes are for learning.
Funny thing how every crash in recent years in the UK was piloted by "excellent", "conscientious", pilots who never pushed the limits. Seems like all of those who push the limits, or are bad pilots never crash.
Seems like speculation is all around us. The police normally only arrest those that they "believe" are guilty based upon their views and evidence collected. Some people are even proven innocent----but at some point in the chain, someone "speculated" that they were guilty of something.
For the record---If I ever crash, I beg all of you to speculate. Look at all the possible factors and if they point to me flying in bad weather, or some other act that I may have committed, then feel free to call me an ass---even if I perish in the accident--I have thick skin. Why you ask? Because, there may be some young pilot reading and can learn from a "speculated" mistake. If it turns out there was a mechanical issue, then learn from that too.
Someone more famous than me, (and I do not know who), once wrote:
The person who never made a mistake, never learnt anything.
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Its sad that after a week of people not speculating but only giving their thoughts on what a great character and person Mark was, that the last day has once again turned into the usual PPRUNE speculation...please to those folk that didnt know Mark respect those of us and his family and leave the speculation behind.......Weather could have been a factor but so could mechanical failure....I guess in the fullness of time we can all read the AIB report...in the mean time please lets just respect the person that Mark was and remember the happiness and fun he brought into many folks life!!
Brassed Off
While I agree with you to some respect, let me say that I have discussed this issue with my loved ones. They are in agreement, so much so, that I actually have an envelope of instructions that I have gone over with certain ones of them. (Kind of like a living will if you want). One of the instructions gives my username and password to various websites, (including this one), where they will post statements which will encourage "sensible speculation" and they direct certain trusted people to post what ever facts they have available. Maybe the way it should be done is to have two threads---one for the condolences, and one for the speculation and discussion. To take it one step further that I had not thought of till now---what if it was a "guided on-line discussion" with a learned and well respected person as moderator?
This may sound morbid, but I believe we work or play in an environment that has certain risks. My loved ones know the risks I take and are at least practically prepared for the "worst case" even though they obviously will not be emotionally prepared. Through out my many years in this industry, I have lost many friends and acquaintances, and because of the "taboo" about speculating accident causes, by the time the result comes in, 99% of the people out there do not learn anything. So I stand by my wishes that people speculate----while it is fresh in their minds.
I believe there is a way to speculate and discuss in a respectful manner. Just like flying----tis all about the planning.
This is all well and good whilst you are alive and kicking but if heaven forbid it was you then I am sure your loved ones would not be happy to see speculation from some of the wooden tops on this forum.
This may sound morbid, but I believe we work or play in an environment that has certain risks. My loved ones know the risks I take and are at least practically prepared for the "worst case" even though they obviously will not be emotionally prepared. Through out my many years in this industry, I have lost many friends and acquaintances, and because of the "taboo" about speculating accident causes, by the time the result comes in, 99% of the people out there do not learn anything. So I stand by my wishes that people speculate----while it is fresh in their minds.
I believe there is a way to speculate and discuss in a respectful manner. Just like flying----tis all about the planning.
Last edited by Gordy; 18th Mar 2011 at 22:42. Reason: added a bit more