Cumbria Helicopter crash discussion
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Grenville,
I've thus far not entered into this thread, but in terms of your suggestion that a certified examiner should have 5,000 hours and a minimum of 500 hours on type, is a little steep don't you think?
There are probably not many examiners in the country that would actually fit that criteria now. I currently struggle to find an examiner to undertake my current LPC, often having to travel to take it. I'm pretty certain that the examiners I have used in the past do not have that amount of time, with the exception of one, who I know does have it. Personally, I think the requirement for an LPC each year should be relaxed for pilots who are flying regularly. Possibly reduced to every other year if your flight time exceeds 50 hours per annum??? Let's not forget, that the LPC only demonstrates that the pilot is competent at that exact moment, and does not have any bearing on the flying style of the pilot when an examiner is not on board the aircraft.
Whilst I'm here, I am somewhat amazed at the diverse attitude that some owner/operators take when it comes to their own paperwork and maintenance etc. I complete my tech log and my log book contemporaneously and I would never fly the aircraft out of it's hours or if my LPC had expired. I'm certain that I have 'challenged the envelope' a few times when I'm flying and I'm probably guilty of the odd "showboating" however when I compare my interpretation of these against videos I have seen of others or AAIB reports of incidents, I'm an angel of the skies !
This incident is very regrettable and I hope that it further advances the safety cause of pilots to fly safe.
Joel
I've thus far not entered into this thread, but in terms of your suggestion that a certified examiner should have 5,000 hours and a minimum of 500 hours on type, is a little steep don't you think?
There are probably not many examiners in the country that would actually fit that criteria now. I currently struggle to find an examiner to undertake my current LPC, often having to travel to take it. I'm pretty certain that the examiners I have used in the past do not have that amount of time, with the exception of one, who I know does have it. Personally, I think the requirement for an LPC each year should be relaxed for pilots who are flying regularly. Possibly reduced to every other year if your flight time exceeds 50 hours per annum??? Let's not forget, that the LPC only demonstrates that the pilot is competent at that exact moment, and does not have any bearing on the flying style of the pilot when an examiner is not on board the aircraft.
Whilst I'm here, I am somewhat amazed at the diverse attitude that some owner/operators take when it comes to their own paperwork and maintenance etc. I complete my tech log and my log book contemporaneously and I would never fly the aircraft out of it's hours or if my LPC had expired. I'm certain that I have 'challenged the envelope' a few times when I'm flying and I'm probably guilty of the odd "showboating" however when I compare my interpretation of these against videos I have seen of others or AAIB reports of incidents, I'm an angel of the skies !
This incident is very regrettable and I hope that it further advances the safety cause of pilots to fly safe.
Joel
Last edited by JTobias; 17th Oct 2012 at 11:32. Reason: Punctuation
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Grenville - I can't understand what you are saying 
Even if it is a Hungarian machine, under ICAO (in theory) it should meet a minimum standard. I'm prepared to believe the Hungarians would ba s shocked as we are about the state this machine was in, but it was all drawn to the attention of the UK CAA and ignored. The premise behind ICAO/EASA or whatever is that there should be an acceptable minimum anywhere you go. In theory
Phil
PS - further to my previous post, for the sake of accuracy, there were 5 people in it, and it was also running with unidentified oil. The photos I mentioned were pulled in by the AAIB.
Even if it is a Hungarian machine, under ICAO (in theory) it should meet a minimum standard. I'm prepared to believe the Hungarians would ba s shocked as we are about the state this machine was in, but it was all drawn to the attention of the UK CAA and ignored. The premise behind ICAO/EASA or whatever is that there should be an acceptable minimum anywhere you go. In theory
Phil
PS - further to my previous post, for the sake of accuracy, there were 5 people in it, and it was also running with unidentified oil. The photos I mentioned were pulled in by the AAIB.
Last edited by paco; 17th Oct 2012 at 11:36.
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Tobias, you would appear to be a sensible (compliant) operator and which is good.
paco,
and which seems to be the problem.
How do foreign aviation authorities establish levels of compliance for aircraft based outside of their physical territory? Do they have a budget to send inspectors around the world to check-up on the aircraft abroad?
paco,
The premise behind ICAO/EASA or whatever is that there should be an acceptable minimum anywhere you go. In theory
How do foreign aviation authorities establish levels of compliance for aircraft based outside of their physical territory? Do they have a budget to send inspectors around the world to check-up on the aircraft abroad?
Avoid imitations
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the pilot log book may have been in the helicopter and blown away it was a bleak night very windy
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"How do foreign aviation authorities establish levels of compliance for aircraft based outside of their physical territory? Do they have a budget to send inspectors around the world to check-up on the aircraft abroad?"
No, but they should be able to rely on the local guys to ground it.
Phil
No, but they should be able to rely on the local guys to ground it.
Phil
In respect of the CAA monitoring aircraft standards this hardly occurs anymore.
In the early eighties a surveyor would check every aircraft at C of A time.
In the last 14 years I have seen two surveyors!!!!!!!
You knew who your local surveyor was and he knew you.
If you look at the midlands there were area offices in Doncaster, Coventry, East Midlands Airport and Derby. Probably over 20 in total for the UK, there are now 6.
They rely totally on the integrity of the maintenance organisations.
So the bottom line is often the licensed engineer on the shop floor refusing to sign for dubious aircraft.
In the early eighties a surveyor would check every aircraft at C of A time.
In the last 14 years I have seen two surveyors!!!!!!!
You knew who your local surveyor was and he knew you.
If you look at the midlands there were area offices in Doncaster, Coventry, East Midlands Airport and Derby. Probably over 20 in total for the UK, there are now 6.
They rely totally on the integrity of the maintenance organisations.
So the bottom line is often the licensed engineer on the shop floor refusing to sign for dubious aircraft.
Last edited by ericferret; 17th Oct 2012 at 19:31.
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So what is being said here is that there was no oversight as to how this helicopter was being flown or serviced and the fact that it was on a foreign register only served to assure the CAA that it was none of their business?
Grenville Fortescue,
Before you go on and send your recommendations to the CAA.
Ask yourself this:
Did this accident happen due to the:
1. Nationality of the helicopter?
2. The maintenance state of the helicopter?
3. The pilots lack of loggbooks, papers etc.??
OR
4. Did this happen due to one individual pilot, which disregarded CURRENT rules and regulations, and flew past his capabilities, became disoriented and killed himself???
The pilot in question would have done the EXACT same thing with a G-reg'ed machine..
This is the same argumentation as it was in the Colin Mcrae thread a few years back.
Then it was also a big focus on the ''papers'' of CM, incl. logbooks, but it WASN't why he crashed. His machine was G-reg'ed...
Businessmen, rally-drivers etc. and other ''Championes'' or successful people(not ALL ofcourse), which gets their license and a helicopter, tend to being used to being very good at their respective occupations/hobbies and automatically think that counts for them while flying as well.
The problem here is: ATTITUDE towards flying and awareness of own capabilities.
Just for the record, there are some pilot's out there with all the papers in order, flying both Private and Commercial, aircrafts with correct papers and in good conditions and are accidents waiting to happen due to this.
As JTobias nailed above:
Before you go on and send your recommendations to the CAA.
Ask yourself this:
Did this accident happen due to the:
1. Nationality of the helicopter?
2. The maintenance state of the helicopter?
3. The pilots lack of loggbooks, papers etc.??
OR
4. Did this happen due to one individual pilot, which disregarded CURRENT rules and regulations, and flew past his capabilities, became disoriented and killed himself???
The pilot in question would have done the EXACT same thing with a G-reg'ed machine..
This is the same argumentation as it was in the Colin Mcrae thread a few years back.
Then it was also a big focus on the ''papers'' of CM, incl. logbooks, but it WASN't why he crashed. His machine was G-reg'ed...
Businessmen, rally-drivers etc. and other ''Championes'' or successful people(not ALL ofcourse), which gets their license and a helicopter, tend to being used to being very good at their respective occupations/hobbies and automatically think that counts for them while flying as well.
The problem here is: ATTITUDE towards flying and awareness of own capabilities.
Just for the record, there are some pilot's out there with all the papers in order, flying both Private and Commercial, aircrafts with correct papers and in good conditions and are accidents waiting to happen due to this.
As JTobias nailed above:
Let's not forget, that the LPC only demonstrates that the pilot is competent at that exact moment, and does not have any bearing on the flying style of the pilot when an examiner is not on board the aircraft.
Last edited by Nubian; 17th Oct 2012 at 19:44. Reason: Including quote
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I have put my letter on hold.
What can be done about renegade pilots and flagrant disregard for maintenance standards?
This is the 21st century - why are we getting caught-out like this?
What can be done about renegade pilots and flagrant disregard for maintenance standards?
This is the 21st century - why are we getting caught-out like this?
On one occasion I had cause to report a comercial operator for falsifying aircraft records. I reported this to the CAA enforcement branch who did not want to know.
On a separate occasion I reported an owner flying an R22 with a main rotor gearbox fault, and I quote
"Well if he flies it past our office window we might take some action"
The truth is that a lot of the great safety record we have in the UK is down to the integrity and honesty of pilots and engineers involved in the business. Who are in the majority.
Individuals with the attitudes alluded to in the posts above undermine us all and risk a far more draconian system being put in place.
Look at the american system. Would you want to have your licence supended on the spot and a multi thousand euro fine imposed for what currently would probably entail a slapped wrist and an hour on the naughty step!!!!!
On a separate occasion I reported an owner flying an R22 with a main rotor gearbox fault, and I quote
"Well if he flies it past our office window we might take some action"
The truth is that a lot of the great safety record we have in the UK is down to the integrity and honesty of pilots and engineers involved in the business. Who are in the majority.
Individuals with the attitudes alluded to in the posts above undermine us all and risk a far more draconian system being put in place.
Look at the american system. Would you want to have your licence supended on the spot and a multi thousand euro fine imposed for what currently would probably entail a slapped wrist and an hour on the naughty step!!!!!
Last edited by ericferret; 17th Oct 2012 at 19:57.
Maybe all PPL helicopter pilots should wear stetsons and spurs.
Most would wear white hats but some would wear black.
Then we would know where we are.
Reading this post you might think I am suggesting that all PPL pilots are actually cowboys, I couldn't possibly comment!!!
Safe flying to the good guys and may the bad guys bite the dust flying solo.
Sorry for the western analogy but I just watched "Purgatory" on DVD.
YeeHaa
Most would wear white hats but some would wear black.
Then we would know where we are.
Reading this post you might think I am suggesting that all PPL pilots are actually cowboys, I couldn't possibly comment!!!
Safe flying to the good guys and may the bad guys bite the dust flying solo.
Sorry for the western analogy but I just watched "Purgatory" on DVD.
YeeHaa
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This has got "Naff All" to do with ppl / private / commercial and everything to do with the attitude of the pilot and the maintenance organisation. If you think otherwise then read through the AAIB reports.
The pilot has responsibility for the crash - nothing that was wrong with the helicopter contributed to the crash, according to the report.
The maintenance organising might have something to answer for - I understand that the C of A should not have been issued if then engine installed is unapproved.
Sometimes a cavalier attitude to the rules is an early sign of a problem pilot but that applies to CPL as much as PPL.
The pilot has responsibility for the crash - nothing that was wrong with the helicopter contributed to the crash, according to the report.
The maintenance organising might have something to answer for - I understand that the C of A should not have been issued if then engine installed is unapproved.
Sometimes a cavalier attitude to the rules is an early sign of a problem pilot but that applies to CPL as much as PPL.
John that attitude applies to pilots across the spectrum regardless of nationality, licence or background.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The pilot completed a licence proficiency check with a freelance examiner, formerly a British military pilot, in July 2010. The examiner stated that he had conducted a number of proficiency checks with the pilot in recent years and considered him to be of above average flying ability, adding that his skill level was similar to that of a British military helicopter pilot of two or three years operational experience.
I can't believe that it compares to a military 6 monthly/annual or standards check ride. In addition, every mil pilot has an IR rating and most of all, the biggest factor in it all, 4 little letters, OASC
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
At the other end of the PPL and privately owned aircraft scale, we have this chap: Aviation
Thorough, meticulous, risk averse and professional! Some interesting trip reports.
Thorough, meticulous, risk averse and professional! Some interesting trip reports.
And an interesting contact page
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/contact.html
I am not on any social networking sites
And his new site is European General Aviation
There's no mention of an engineering licence, but in the PPL world, are you allowed to do the 50hr service without one?
Trip to Samothraki - September 2012
There is also a large toolbox with enough tools to do the 50-hr service plus potential emergency jobs like changing the vacuum pump. I carry a spare vacuum pump too, with the vacuum line filters which must be changed if the pump fails. On longer trips I also carry a complete set of spare servos for the notoriously unreliable KFC225 autopilot,
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 19th Oct 2012 at 08:20. Reason: Spool chucking
Clearly, yes: Socata TB20 Trinidad
It's pretty obvious as you read his site that he has takes maintenance very seriously - and weather limits. He even bought new to avoid a dodgy (hidden) history!
Maybe he doesn't consider pprune to be a networking site - unlike FB or L*****in etc!
It's pretty obvious as you read his site that he has takes maintenance very seriously - and weather limits. He even bought new to avoid a dodgy (hidden) history!
Maybe he doesn't consider pprune to be a networking site - unlike FB or L*****in etc!
Last edited by 212man; 19th Oct 2012 at 09:30.
Sid
LPC at the time for vfr ( now different under EASA) would consist of basically the following.
notams, wx etc etc
Check A of the ac ( walkround)
Start up
hover taxy to Heli area
landing into wind then x wind and downwind
spot turns
sideways backwards
circuit
limited power take off and landing
steep turns 30 degree ( for pplh) 360 degrees
climbing descending onto specified headings
180 degree turn under the hood
sloping ground
autorotation
EOL
PFL
landings various profiles
Emergency procedures normally covering a minimum of 3
fire drills
smoke control and removal
engine failure
fuel dumping
tr failure
t/r loss
incapacitation of crew
transmission malfunctions
normal and abnormal procedures min of 3 from below
engine
air conditioning
pitot/static
fuel
anti ice
trim
electrical
auto pilot
sas systems
landing gear
Shut down and post shut down checks and paperwork
Now under EASA we have to ask 10 questions relating to perfomance and limitations
LPC at the time for vfr ( now different under EASA) would consist of basically the following.
notams, wx etc etc
Check A of the ac ( walkround)
Start up
hover taxy to Heli area
landing into wind then x wind and downwind
spot turns
sideways backwards
circuit
limited power take off and landing
steep turns 30 degree ( for pplh) 360 degrees
climbing descending onto specified headings
180 degree turn under the hood
sloping ground
autorotation
EOL
PFL
landings various profiles
Emergency procedures normally covering a minimum of 3
fire drills
smoke control and removal
engine failure
fuel dumping
tr failure
t/r loss
incapacitation of crew
transmission malfunctions
normal and abnormal procedures min of 3 from below
engine
air conditioning
pitot/static
fuel
anti ice
trim
electrical
auto pilot
sas systems
landing gear
Shut down and post shut down checks and paperwork
Now under EASA we have to ask 10 questions relating to perfomance and limitations