UK Police helicopter budget cuts
Chopjock
Ah,so there's the answer! A little knowlege is a very dangerous thing! quote "Ive flown as P1 in a single at night over many cities"
Then you must have been doing it as a volunteer, because no proffessional Pilot would have done that, not at the height and in the conditions that we are required to operate at. Thats the difference!
Police Air Support in the UK has to operate 24/7 365 days a year, in all weathers. Our job is the prevention and detection crime and the protection of life and property. Not swanning about for the sheer hell of it.
What we have now, is the result of a constant desire over the past 25 years to provide the best service we could. We did, and it worked! Serious crime was really hampered. Many Police Officers on the street were saved from serious injury because of the presence of the heli above recording everything.
For once it was the criminals turn to be on the defensive, - to be scared.
Now because we have been largely successful the bean counter says " Job Done, lets dismantle it all now, and spend the money elsewhere" Don't they understand that as soon as the criminal realises that we have gone away or are so far away as to be always too late, that its going to be free pickings for all?
One of the first things that I learned as a young bobby on the street was
"Never be kind to criminals, - to them kindness is weakness and weakness is to be exploited" Now we are going to be kind to them all over again. Freedom to steal cars, freedom to mug and freedom to start up ram raiding again.
Why did we bother to stop them in the first place? Chopjock and his mates want to save money, to keep it in their pocket. Until the time comes when their car is stolen or they get mugged. Might be a different storey then!
There is only one way to safe aviation and that is the right way. No cutting of corners.
Tigerfish
Tired, fed up and totally demoralised that people can be of so short memories.
Then you must have been doing it as a volunteer, because no proffessional Pilot would have done that, not at the height and in the conditions that we are required to operate at. Thats the difference!
Police Air Support in the UK has to operate 24/7 365 days a year, in all weathers. Our job is the prevention and detection crime and the protection of life and property. Not swanning about for the sheer hell of it.
What we have now, is the result of a constant desire over the past 25 years to provide the best service we could. We did, and it worked! Serious crime was really hampered. Many Police Officers on the street were saved from serious injury because of the presence of the heli above recording everything.
For once it was the criminals turn to be on the defensive, - to be scared.
Now because we have been largely successful the bean counter says " Job Done, lets dismantle it all now, and spend the money elsewhere" Don't they understand that as soon as the criminal realises that we have gone away or are so far away as to be always too late, that its going to be free pickings for all?
One of the first things that I learned as a young bobby on the street was
"Never be kind to criminals, - to them kindness is weakness and weakness is to be exploited" Now we are going to be kind to them all over again. Freedom to steal cars, freedom to mug and freedom to start up ram raiding again.
Why did we bother to stop them in the first place? Chopjock and his mates want to save money, to keep it in their pocket. Until the time comes when their car is stolen or they get mugged. Might be a different storey then!
There is only one way to safe aviation and that is the right way. No cutting of corners.
Tigerfish
Tired, fed up and totally demoralised that people can be of so short memories.
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During my time as a police officer, I was privileged to spend my last 12yrs of service as an observer with a major UK metropolitan force. During that time I have lost count of the number of jobs, pursuits or whatever I went on in marginal but legal weather conditions to fulfill our role. What was always comforting to know was, one, I felt safe in the hands of a competent pilot with a lot of experience behind him and, two, we had two engines.
Believe me if you are engaged in a pursuit over a major city during the night and you get a chip light or a fire warning in an engine as I have experienced, it's nice to know you can lose that engine if necessary and still FLY.
Would I like to have experienced that in a single or be prepared to do so? No Thanks and I don't think I am alone.
Believe me if you are engaged in a pursuit over a major city during the night and you get a chip light or a fire warning in an engine as I have experienced, it's nice to know you can lose that engine if necessary and still FLY.
Would I like to have experienced that in a single or be prepared to do so? No Thanks and I don't think I am alone.
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Singles are much more practical and would give more mission time when compared to an equivilent twin.
Please explain your reasoning behind this statement.
That equates to the single being cheaper, lighter, faster, probably more useful load, longer endurance, cheaper to run. I would say that makes it more practical, in my opinion.
Avoid imitations
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Which singles fit your decription and how many are certified for night IFR public transport work?
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Hmm chop jock, unless you live in LA or some where with sunshine all year round. You are barking sunshine!!! or I must think a single engined guy hoping for a job. Night /day tons of wind, rain blah blah blah is NOT a happy place in a single.. Throw in the fact your over a city, open blackness ( country stuff) sea or whatever and acutally for once the CAA are right and the Police are right! There has not been an accident for years with a twin ( touch wood) that has killed people..... but of course thats not in the budget!!!!!!!
Last edited by peterprobe; 8th Dec 2009 at 01:15.
I think I have the solution to the costs here. I have just discovered that in the military ( UK strength about 200k ) there are 84k civil servants in the MOD, that is 1 civil servant to 2.5 " soldiers", what the f... are they doing ?
Now if that ratio is the same in all Govt departments then there must be an awful lot of civil servants looking after the police ( sorry guys dont know how many not ex plod) lets get rid of them and spend the money on helis. ( how am I doing so far ?)
BUT
Now what worries me as a taxpayer is that 52% of the taxpayers work for the Govt, there are another 3% unemployed, another 5 % who are on incapacity benefit and another 10% odd who choose not to work ( housewives etc etc). That leaves 30% of us paying taxes to keep all this going, not surprising the country is stuffed !
Now if that ratio is the same in all Govt departments then there must be an awful lot of civil servants looking after the police ( sorry guys dont know how many not ex plod) lets get rid of them and spend the money on helis. ( how am I doing so far ?)
BUT
Now what worries me as a taxpayer is that 52% of the taxpayers work for the Govt, there are another 3% unemployed, another 5 % who are on incapacity benefit and another 10% odd who choose not to work ( housewives etc etc). That leaves 30% of us paying taxes to keep all this going, not surprising the country is stuffed !
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Chopjock, did you choose to ignore my post? You can fly a 135 (just) with a TR failure. You dont need two. Doesn't work for engines though.......
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Guys don't bite chopchop is winding you up. Hes got no idea what hes talking about and quite obviously is not taking in anything he is reading. Which means he probably works in the NIPA. ( No Point In Asking)
B.u.d.g.i.e.
I agree totally with your message! By the way I think you mean NPIA. For those interested that stands for the National Police Improvement Agency !!!!!!?????
Tigerfish
Tigerfish
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Which singles fit your decription and how many are certified for night IFR public transport work?
I was loosely referring to older frames like the AS350 evolving into an AS355, and becoming heaver, slower, more thirsty and more expensive, and like when the B 206L grew another engine etc.Obviously singles are not rated for public transport at night/IFR in the uk, my point was whether it should be public transport in the first place. Anyway, I've stated my opinion, it is a forum after all.
I just like to be the odd one out putting the other side of the story across.
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your right tiger it was a typo. But it still stands for No Point In Asking......
They are a little slow on the up take....bit like chopchop was but he seems to be getting the point now
They are a little slow on the up take....bit like chopchop was but he seems to be getting the point now
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At the risk of being shot down,
One would hope that the type of aircraft (light twin SPIFR etc) is not open for discussion (due to CAA etc).
That leaves the 15 minute rule and whether adequate coverage can be obtained by reducing the aircraft numbers. I would think that it would be a pretty easy argument for any Chief Constable to point out that if the air support did not meet the 15 min rule then he is not playing.
That said, it is practically impossible (unless you have limitless resources) to have 15 mins from everywhere, so what is the ruling - 15 mins from 80% of the population and 60 mins to 100%?
Cheers.
One would hope that the type of aircraft (light twin SPIFR etc) is not open for discussion (due to CAA etc).
That leaves the 15 minute rule and whether adequate coverage can be obtained by reducing the aircraft numbers. I would think that it would be a pretty easy argument for any Chief Constable to point out that if the air support did not meet the 15 min rule then he is not playing.
That said, it is practically impossible (unless you have limitless resources) to have 15 mins from everywhere, so what is the ruling - 15 mins from 80% of the population and 60 mins to 100%?
Cheers.
Hughes 500 - if you want to see profligate waste on civil servants - have a look at those serving in Afghanistan some of whom are earning £8K a MONTH extra pay for shining their asses abroad - not patrolling like the £15K a year private - just deskwork!!
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Do me a favour!! The weather conditions we are legal to fly in are bloody challenging. Read the CAP document on the CAA website, I think most pilots would accept that visual flying in those conditions (1 km by day/2km by night) are near enough all weather!! When it gets like that, the camera performance is the limitation, not the weather.
True, some are not H24, but many of us are!! It doesn't happen often, but when you launch in these conditions, you suddenly realise that you should be paid a lot more!!
True, some are not H24, but many of us are!! It doesn't happen often, but when you launch in these conditions, you suddenly realise that you should be paid a lot more!!
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That said, it is practically impossible (unless you have limitless resources) to have 15 mins from everywhere, so what is the ruling - 15 mins from 80% of the population and 60 mins to 100%?
Jimball,
The words "Government" and "Plan" in the same sentence should have everyone worried.
Some of the basic schoolboy errors and omissions from the document that I saw and was asked to comment on last year indicated insufficient aviation knowledge on behalf of some of the contributors and that the drive to do the "Same with less" was clearly more important than doing "more with the same".
The "Government Plan" that I saw will cost more to implement than it will save in 5 years.
The words "Government" and "Plan" in the same sentence should have everyone worried.
Some of the basic schoolboy errors and omissions from the document that I saw and was asked to comment on last year indicated insufficient aviation knowledge on behalf of some of the contributors and that the drive to do the "Same with less" was clearly more important than doing "more with the same".
The "Government Plan" that I saw will cost more to implement than it will save in 5 years.