UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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I saw Lancs police ASU getting some good PR on the local news last night. Its got to be the way ahead - there will be a mad rush for good PR stories from all the Units if they have any sense!
For those of you that can access it the recent Home Office report on saving £500M across police budgets received some air time via BBC Radio 4 last week and its still available on i-player.
A 30-minute programme fronted by former Assistant Commissioner Andy Heyman explored ways to save public purse money among contributors largely consisting of his former ACPO associates rather than grass-roots practitioners. From this limited perspective it appears clear that there is a will to save money but no-one has any clear ideas on how.
Air support got short shrift and it was the Conservative Shadow Home Secretary that talked on pushing air support into ‘collaboration.’ That fits nicely into the ACPO led ‘National Air Support’ agenda but to the knowledgable the short item came across as being poorly researched. To the unknowing majority it was very damaging to police air support.
He spoke of '42 forces' with air support being too much and even said that British Transport Police [BTP] did not need an aircraft. No-one seems to have warned him that 33 aircraft used by 42 forces underlines collaboration.
Radio 4 Policing Britain the air support bit is at 22minutes 15 seconds.
BBC iPlayer - Policing Britain: The Justice We Deserve
A 30-minute programme fronted by former Assistant Commissioner Andy Heyman explored ways to save public purse money among contributors largely consisting of his former ACPO associates rather than grass-roots practitioners. From this limited perspective it appears clear that there is a will to save money but no-one has any clear ideas on how.
Air support got short shrift and it was the Conservative Shadow Home Secretary that talked on pushing air support into ‘collaboration.’ That fits nicely into the ACPO led ‘National Air Support’ agenda but to the knowledgable the short item came across as being poorly researched. To the unknowing majority it was very damaging to police air support.
He spoke of '42 forces' with air support being too much and even said that British Transport Police [BTP] did not need an aircraft. No-one seems to have warned him that 33 aircraft used by 42 forces underlines collaboration.
Radio 4 Policing Britain the air support bit is at 22minutes 15 seconds.
BBC iPlayer - Policing Britain: The Justice We Deserve
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The "lets save money, - to hell with preventing crime" brigade now have command. Merseyside had already been identified as an early casualty. By 2008 UK Police Air support led the world. By 2012 ??
But we do have to save money and I think the ASU's are way over the top by operating what appears to be the most expensive helicopters available.
Quite right to make cuts and become more efficient. As to why they are getting trashed, well the cops do have an advantage over the crooks, so the crooks are only trying to even the scales. Maybe if the crooks got themselves a helicopter support unit too then they wouldn't have to trash plod's, that would even the score a little.
Just the other point of view.
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Mr G-Box
I think you'll find chopjock to be an upset UAV operator trying to get into the UK law enforcement market!
I feel another chopjock 'the troll' feeding session coming on.
Don't do it chasps.
Chop Jock. So if you believe we are operating the most expensive aircraft available, considering the current rules, what aircraft you would suggest we operate?
I feel another chopjock 'the troll' feeding session coming on.
Don't do it chasps.
All over the world, there are a lot of news-copters and police forces that use R44s too, at a tenth of the price of an EC135. Trouble is, all the time the UK has restrictions with single engined machines flying over congested areas (where a lot of the crime happens), you're into twins with respectively higher operating costs? That immediately rules out all of the above: Hillers, hughes, Gazelles, 206, R44s...
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Trouble is, all the time the UK has restrictions with single engined machines flying over congested areas (where a lot of the crime happens)
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TC
Other than the notified area in London, 1,000 ft above the tallest structure. Still plenty low enough to zoom in and read number plates and look for scrotes hiding under trees.
I'm aware that police operate under a special AOC. My point though is you can apply for an exemption to the ANO. Police aviation could be run much more cheaply and effectively than at present.
chopjock: whats the lowest you can fly over a congested area in a single?
I'm aware that police operate under a special AOC. My point though is you can apply for an exemption to the ANO. Police aviation could be run much more cheaply and effectively than at present.
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Chop jock
Chop Jock. I assume you are just looking for some sport here, trying to bait those that are out there doing this 24 hours a day. You probably need to find a new hobby. Could we apply for exemptions etc, historically that's what we did do,but the CAA decided that it was getting a bit out of hand and made us work to a single professional standard, public transport. I did lots of daft things in single engine helicopters in the Army, which on reflection were just fine... as long as the donk kept turning. Now I'm much happier with two engines sat over a major city at any time day or night, and I do do a lot of that, knowing that in the event of one of them failing I can fly away. Single engine failure in a single engine aircraft means you are going one way and one way only. I know that the failure rate is small but there is an interesting video of police aircraft making an arrival into a carpark at night when his only engine quit. What's price a life? Remember it's not just the crew could be everyone in Tesco's when you pop in through the roof having got it wrong. As for your comment about we can do it cheaper and more effectively.. longer transits to the scene of an incident is not more effective, and I think what we do is pretty effective and there are thousands, literally, at Her Majesty's Pleasure who would agree. There is scope to change the way we operate, sweeping away the boundaries and that is already being done in some areas.
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chopjock
Yes, but it is a UAV and as you say, you have to be supervised when you do it.
I fly a single engined machine in the UK, day and night, over congested areas (not the City of London though) with an observer whenever I like.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
A further bit of thread creep.
airpolice
and the Army & RN
Jeez, there are enough gripes and bad feeling of, 'Why do all the Air Ambo/Police jobs go to ex-military pilots' already, we surely don't need another. (By the way, out unit is 50/50 mil/civ line pilot split)
However, looking at the quote, who in their right mind is going to pay for 1500hrs tt, 500 hours twin, 50+ night etc 'under instruction and then realise that they don't have the required PIC hours for these jobs?
Kind of narrows the application profile!
And here's me thinking I knew what that first 'P' stood for!
The RAF allow people to fly without having a CPL or even a PPL, so why not the Police?
Jeez, there are enough gripes and bad feeling of, 'Why do all the Air Ambo/Police jobs go to ex-military pilots' already, we surely don't need another. (By the way, out unit is 50/50 mil/civ line pilot split)
However, looking at the quote, who in their right mind is going to pay for 1500hrs tt, 500 hours twin, 50+ night etc 'under instruction and then realise that they don't have the required PIC hours for these jobs?
Kind of narrows the application profile!
there will be no shortage of ppl(h) applicants prepared to operate an R44 with a PCSO sitting beside them. All this for £12,500 a year and pay your own pension.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Lets not kid ourselves about how much money we could save if we went US AirOps style.
Police Helicopter Pilot - NYPD Aviation Unit
Other links;
Where are all those pesky cost cutting R22 units?
Police Helicopter Pilot - NYPD Aviation Unit
The New York Police Department's Aviation Division is staffed with approximately 57 sworn police officers. Even the NYPD helicopter mechanics are sworn police officers.
NYPD operates a total of 4 Agusta A119 Koalas, and 3 Bell 412s. They fly out of Floyd Bennet Field in Brooklyn NY.
To be elligible for transfer into the NYPD air unit you not only must be a sworn officer, but you must have a commercial pilots license, either fixed wing or rotor wing, and/or an A&P (airframe & powerplant) license.
Five (5) years of experience as a NYPD Officer is preferred before being elligible for the unit, however, an outstanding candidate with excellent credentials can make it in 3-5 years.
Desired qualities are: Aviation experience, excellent evaluations, good sick time record and excellent record of police service.
In addition to supporting patrol officers on the ground, the unit takes on numerous homeland security missions in and around New York City and it's waterways.
NYPD operates a total of 4 Agusta A119 Koalas, and 3 Bell 412s. They fly out of Floyd Bennet Field in Brooklyn NY.
To be elligible for transfer into the NYPD air unit you not only must be a sworn officer, but you must have a commercial pilots license, either fixed wing or rotor wing, and/or an A&P (airframe & powerplant) license.
Five (5) years of experience as a NYPD Officer is preferred before being elligible for the unit, however, an outstanding candidate with excellent credentials can make it in 3-5 years.
Desired qualities are: Aviation experience, excellent evaluations, good sick time record and excellent record of police service.
In addition to supporting patrol officers on the ground, the unit takes on numerous homeland security missions in and around New York City and it's waterways.
In 2008 MD Helicopters and the Houston Police Department announced that the department would be purchasing 8 new MD500E helicopters. In addition to the new MD 500s, the department also recently ordered 3 new Schweizer 300 helicopters for training. When all the aircraft are delivered the unit will stand at 16 total helicopters and 1- fixed wing.
LAPD stands at 17 helicopters
At 300 PIC (pilot in command) hours, the officer is given their PIC sign off and can function as a junior patrol pilot. Further training continues IE: instrument rating, CT182RG commercial & instrument, out of valley sign offs day 500 hours, night 1000 hours, Bell 407 transition training 500 hours, night vision goggle PIC sign off 1000 hours, HH1H transition training 1000 hours, rescue pilot training minimum 2000 hours, CFI minimum 1000 hours, sling, hoist, live load etc. …….each continuing or advanced training is set by minimum required PIC hours of experience as well as capability.
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I shouldn't think chopchops ideas for change will be much of a reassuring alternative after this little incident;
I spy £20k lost copter on Capital church roof - Scotsman.com
I spy £20k lost copter on Capital church roof
Owner's prayers answered as craft turns up at long last
Published Date: 21 May 2010
By LAURA CUMMINGS
IT MYSTERIOUSLY vanished on its first outing in the Capital after the owner lost sight of it in the skies above the city centre.
Now – around three months after it disappeared – the highly sophisticated Draganflyer X6 "spy" helicopter has been reunited with owner John Wallbank after being found on the roof of a church, around 800 metres from where it went missing.
Mr Wallbank, who lives in Marchmont, lost track of the £20,000 state-of-the-art craft after it took off for the first time from Princes Street Gardens one afternoon in January.
He has been searching for the satellite-guided helicopter, which is battery-powered and operated by a custom controller, ever since and even offered a £500 reward for its safe return through the Evening News.
Today, Mr Wallbank, 38, has been reunited with the craft after it was discovered on the roof of St Cuthbert's Church on Lothian Road by church officer Euan Romanis .
Mr Wallbank said: "I was delighted to be reunited with it. It was very fortuitous.
"It had landed on the roof with one leg in the gutter and one jammed in behind a chimney stack, which was the reason why it didn't get blown off the roof and smash into a million pieces on the ground.
"It was difficult to predict exactly where it had come down. I had a fair idea that it could be around that area and I asked Mr Romanis to have a look on the church roof and left him my business card."
Mr Romanis discovered the machine after going on to the roof to clear a blocked gutter last month. He said: "My first thought was 'what is that', it looked like a black bag but when I got nearer, I knew exactly what it was because Mr Wallbank had described it to me."
Despite being exposed to the elements for around three months, the helicopter only required some minor repair work, which was carried out by Canadian manufacturer Draganfly Innovations.
Mr Wallbank, who owns a photocopying and design company , was the first person in Scotland to get his hands on the new kit and is using it to set up an aerial video and photography company.
The six-rotor aerial vehicle was declassified more than a year ago by the US military, who devised the product and are believed to have used it for covert operations.
And it seems Mr Wallbank was reunited with his Draganflyer X6 just in time. Just two days before it was discovered he had decided that if it hadn't been found by the end of that week, he would order another one.
He said: "I had a few hoax calls and time wasters and the trail had gone cold. I think I had given fliers out to every shop on Princes Street asking the head of security to have a look on the roof. I was running out of ideas and it was getting a bit frustrating."
Mr Wallbank, who donated the £500 reward to the church, has been asked to use the helicopter to film aerial shots for a three-part BBC documentary on archaeology.
Owner's prayers answered as craft turns up at long last
Published Date: 21 May 2010
By LAURA CUMMINGS
IT MYSTERIOUSLY vanished on its first outing in the Capital after the owner lost sight of it in the skies above the city centre.
Now – around three months after it disappeared – the highly sophisticated Draganflyer X6 "spy" helicopter has been reunited with owner John Wallbank after being found on the roof of a church, around 800 metres from where it went missing.
Mr Wallbank, who lives in Marchmont, lost track of the £20,000 state-of-the-art craft after it took off for the first time from Princes Street Gardens one afternoon in January.
He has been searching for the satellite-guided helicopter, which is battery-powered and operated by a custom controller, ever since and even offered a £500 reward for its safe return through the Evening News.
Today, Mr Wallbank, 38, has been reunited with the craft after it was discovered on the roof of St Cuthbert's Church on Lothian Road by church officer Euan Romanis .
Mr Wallbank said: "I was delighted to be reunited with it. It was very fortuitous.
"It had landed on the roof with one leg in the gutter and one jammed in behind a chimney stack, which was the reason why it didn't get blown off the roof and smash into a million pieces on the ground.
"It was difficult to predict exactly where it had come down. I had a fair idea that it could be around that area and I asked Mr Romanis to have a look on the church roof and left him my business card."
Mr Romanis discovered the machine after going on to the roof to clear a blocked gutter last month. He said: "My first thought was 'what is that', it looked like a black bag but when I got nearer, I knew exactly what it was because Mr Wallbank had described it to me."
Despite being exposed to the elements for around three months, the helicopter only required some minor repair work, which was carried out by Canadian manufacturer Draganfly Innovations.
Mr Wallbank, who owns a photocopying and design company , was the first person in Scotland to get his hands on the new kit and is using it to set up an aerial video and photography company.
The six-rotor aerial vehicle was declassified more than a year ago by the US military, who devised the product and are believed to have used it for covert operations.
And it seems Mr Wallbank was reunited with his Draganflyer X6 just in time. Just two days before it was discovered he had decided that if it hadn't been found by the end of that week, he would order another one.
He said: "I had a few hoax calls and time wasters and the trail had gone cold. I think I had given fliers out to every shop on Princes Street asking the head of security to have a look on the roof. I was running out of ideas and it was getting a bit frustrating."
Mr Wallbank, who donated the £500 reward to the church, has been asked to use the helicopter to film aerial shots for a three-part BBC documentary on archaeology.
And I am not suggesting the use of UAV's either.
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Mr G
I don't understand your point there. Who said anything about longer transits?
But compare the aquisition cost of an EC135 to a 130, now that's what I call more cost effective.
longer transits to the scene of an incident is not more effective,
But compare the aquisition cost of an EC135 to a 130, now that's what I call more cost effective.
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I really can't see where chopcop is coming from.
US style airborne law enforcement seems to revolve around many small flies buzzing about assisting the myriad ants, all armed to the teeth. The UK style has been to utilise an airborne command post to direct the limited, un-armed (mostly), ground assets to the best effect.
The latter approach has made use of one capable aircraft - that's one with the capability to fly in most weathers (IFR by default); get-out-of-cloud training & instrumentation & AP; pilotage to deal with the above; capacity to carry two police (or equivalent) operators; a capable police multi-radio system; a comprehensive camera/TI turret; evidence recording equipment & other extras as may be deemed useful to each operator.
Despite the suggestion of an EC130, for instance, I can't see a single-engine airframe that could support the combination of CAA requirements or operator needs? Yes, DOCs would be lower with just one engine but fuel costs would be similar (EC130 vs EC135 uses just 10% less fuel, and with police equipment strapped on would likely give a similar fuel burn and result in 10% less speed).
The only real way to improve Police Ops worldwide is getting to the scene faster, but the only light on the (distant) horizon would be an ABC/X2 type machine - then we could reduce the number of units to cover a given area . . . but I can't imagine that'll be cheaper!
It's probably true that there are cost savings to be made in the UK, but buying less capable machines, (probably more) pilots, observers & equipment . . . and operating from more bases, maybe, . . . would not seem to be as effective as maintaining the current quality, safety & associated public reassurance.
US style airborne law enforcement seems to revolve around many small flies buzzing about assisting the myriad ants, all armed to the teeth. The UK style has been to utilise an airborne command post to direct the limited, un-armed (mostly), ground assets to the best effect.
The latter approach has made use of one capable aircraft - that's one with the capability to fly in most weathers (IFR by default); get-out-of-cloud training & instrumentation & AP; pilotage to deal with the above; capacity to carry two police (or equivalent) operators; a capable police multi-radio system; a comprehensive camera/TI turret; evidence recording equipment & other extras as may be deemed useful to each operator.
Despite the suggestion of an EC130, for instance, I can't see a single-engine airframe that could support the combination of CAA requirements or operator needs? Yes, DOCs would be lower with just one engine but fuel costs would be similar (EC130 vs EC135 uses just 10% less fuel, and with police equipment strapped on would likely give a similar fuel burn and result in 10% less speed).
The only real way to improve Police Ops worldwide is getting to the scene faster, but the only light on the (distant) horizon would be an ABC/X2 type machine - then we could reduce the number of units to cover a given area . . . but I can't imagine that'll be cheaper!
It's probably true that there are cost savings to be made in the UK, but buying less capable machines, (probably more) pilots, observers & equipment . . . and operating from more bases, maybe, . . . would not seem to be as effective as maintaining the current quality, safety & associated public reassurance.