UK Police helicopter budget cuts
Avoid imitations
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in my humble opinion I always did wonder about the efficiency of sending a chopper after illegal bikers,
We used to be made aware where an ongoing illegal off-roading problem existed and would keep an eye out for them so the aircraft's return transit time was made good use of.
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Stringfellow, you wouldn't say that if it was your mother, sister, wife or daughter in danger.
Stringfellow, the problem is this - once you have reported your depressed relative/granny with alzheimer's/autistic child to the police, they have a duty to make enquires and go looking for said relative. How much effort and how urgently it is applied depends on your relative's history and the information that you supply. The helicopter is not launched to a search without some basic checks and questions asked. In life or death cases it is usual to wait until some mobile phone checks have been completed to ensure that the helicopter is tasked to the correct area.
If the police send the helicopter/dogs/officers/etc, and your relative is found then all is well. If however, the police do not send the above resources and the following day, the body of your missing relative is found dead in the middle of a large open area - something the helicopter would have spotted - there is now a post mortem, an inquiry and you and your family sue the police for failing to find the said relative. Given the propensity for the modern day UK police force to roll over and pay up then your "Savings" rapidly disappear. The "average cost" of an un-natural/untimely death to the UK public purse is in the region of £1.2 million, (Home Office/NHS figure from 2008).
When it comes to searching large open areas or contained urban areas, especially at night, nothing comes close to the helicopter in terms of efficiency. See here for more detail:
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/HOSearchL.pdf
The helicopter only works when it is airborne. It is a sad fact, as recent attacks on police helicopters have shown, that the only people who really appreciate how effective a police helicopter can be - are the criminals.
If the police send the helicopter/dogs/officers/etc, and your relative is found then all is well. If however, the police do not send the above resources and the following day, the body of your missing relative is found dead in the middle of a large open area - something the helicopter would have spotted - there is now a post mortem, an inquiry and you and your family sue the police for failing to find the said relative. Given the propensity for the modern day UK police force to roll over and pay up then your "Savings" rapidly disappear. The "average cost" of an un-natural/untimely death to the UK public purse is in the region of £1.2 million, (Home Office/NHS figure from 2008).
When it comes to searching large open areas or contained urban areas, especially at night, nothing comes close to the helicopter in terms of efficiency. See here for more detail:
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/HOSearchL.pdf
The helicopter only works when it is airborne. It is a sad fact, as recent attacks on police helicopters have shown, that the only people who really appreciate how effective a police helicopter can be - are the criminals.
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Let me see, D & C 's helicopter has 2 engineers full time looking after their helicopter ( recently have to help with the air ambulance as well) Please tell me how that works, when the maintenance company I use has 2 engineers and looks after 17 helicopters, got to be some cost savings there !
You're misinformed about the Devon AA to date.
Your maintenance company has 2 engineers (licensed I'm assuming) and how many fitters? Do the 17 helicopters operate every day and do the 2 engineers never take holiday?
Nodrama
Let me see, when engineer goes on holiday then somone else used to be called in to help cover, this goes right back to the BO 105 days. Personally have no gripe with the engineers just the system ( as a tax payer and someone who wants the heli) that puts 2 engineers with 1 helicopter, dont see too many air ambulances with 2 personal engineers to each ship, oh no wait a minute that has to be funded from a tightly controlled budget, so you wont. Alternativly the BK 117 must be so unreliable that it needs 2 engineers to help it fly 600 hours a year, come on lets get into the real world here.
Another case in point, I can give a few examples of the force machine being used as a taxi, no names no pack drill but why did the machine need to go to Birmingham International airport for on ?? July ??, stay about an hour and then return ? Perhaps it was a long pursuit up the M5 across the M42, with the badies turning round and fighting their way back through the M5 summer traffic to the West Country.
Dont get me wrong I fully support the force helicopter but when one runs their own business and it is you that signs the cheques you get away from " The big Company Syndrome" Remember it is bean counters who run things these days, so if savings arent made with efficiency savings then the big stick is wielded that may start by cutting helicopters as they are a big expense !
Let me see, when engineer goes on holiday then somone else used to be called in to help cover, this goes right back to the BO 105 days. Personally have no gripe with the engineers just the system ( as a tax payer and someone who wants the heli) that puts 2 engineers with 1 helicopter, dont see too many air ambulances with 2 personal engineers to each ship, oh no wait a minute that has to be funded from a tightly controlled budget, so you wont. Alternativly the BK 117 must be so unreliable that it needs 2 engineers to help it fly 600 hours a year, come on lets get into the real world here.
Another case in point, I can give a few examples of the force machine being used as a taxi, no names no pack drill but why did the machine need to go to Birmingham International airport for on ?? July ??, stay about an hour and then return ? Perhaps it was a long pursuit up the M5 across the M42, with the badies turning round and fighting their way back through the M5 summer traffic to the West Country.
Dont get me wrong I fully support the force helicopter but when one runs their own business and it is you that signs the cheques you get away from " The big Company Syndrome" Remember it is bean counters who run things these days, so if savings arent made with efficiency savings then the big stick is wielded that may start by cutting helicopters as they are a big expense !
Nodrama
Sorry rude of me not to answer the rest of your question
1 of the 17 machines ( one of mine ) flies half the hours the BK flies every year. Most of the other machines average 100 to 150 hours. So that is 17 annuals, in the region of 10 x 100 hour checks another 30 x 50 hour checks plus unscheduled maintence.
As to helicopters working every day, I would imagine so across the fleet
Done by 2 engineers and no fitters. Freelance guys do work there but not often. Avionics done by freelance guy.
I know where you are coming from but when push comes to shove what do you want, no helicopter or a helicopter on a very tight budget as normal civilian companies have to ?
Sorry rude of me not to answer the rest of your question
1 of the 17 machines ( one of mine ) flies half the hours the BK flies every year. Most of the other machines average 100 to 150 hours. So that is 17 annuals, in the region of 10 x 100 hour checks another 30 x 50 hour checks plus unscheduled maintence.
As to helicopters working every day, I would imagine so across the fleet
Done by 2 engineers and no fitters. Freelance guys do work there but not often. Avionics done by freelance guy.
I know where you are coming from but when push comes to shove what do you want, no helicopter or a helicopter on a very tight budget as normal civilian companies have to ?
[rant mode on]
er, nodrama, does the Exeter police helicopter work every day? Note I say "Exeter" - the BK is rarely sighted in our part of W Devon, and police friends in Cornwall think I'm having a laugh when I refer to it as "their" hecillopiter too. Colleagues in other forces give a wry smile when asked about single-observer ops, and I suspect Exeter probably do as many pursuits in one year as some forces do in a week. As for my council tax precept funding a commercial AOC to run an Air Transport operation (the Air Amb) - boggles the mind. Unless of course the funding came from somewhere other than the public purse, in which case I happily sit corrected.
However, I'm sure that the unit (is that 5 Instrument Rated pilots including the UEO, for a non-24-hour operation?) will have its defence fully prepared when the cuts are due. It'll probably even claim some kind of regional primacy in view of its history of using NVGs... (in the cruise).
Biased? Yes, I am. In a previous job I flew 3 mutual-support trips into Devon from neighbouring forces in 18 months (D&C offline again) with little evidence of support t'other way. It annoys me to think that our expensive precept goes toward a low-hour, high-expense operation that isn't even based near the geographical OR crime OR population centre of its patch. When forces around the country are having to consider cuts to air cover costs, I'd like to think that the Home Office would send someone with a clear idea of what to look for down to Middlemoor.
[rant mode off]!
er, nodrama, does the Exeter police helicopter work every day? Note I say "Exeter" - the BK is rarely sighted in our part of W Devon, and police friends in Cornwall think I'm having a laugh when I refer to it as "their" hecillopiter too. Colleagues in other forces give a wry smile when asked about single-observer ops, and I suspect Exeter probably do as many pursuits in one year as some forces do in a week. As for my council tax precept funding a commercial AOC to run an Air Transport operation (the Air Amb) - boggles the mind. Unless of course the funding came from somewhere other than the public purse, in which case I happily sit corrected.
However, I'm sure that the unit (is that 5 Instrument Rated pilots including the UEO, for a non-24-hour operation?) will have its defence fully prepared when the cuts are due. It'll probably even claim some kind of regional primacy in view of its history of using NVGs... (in the cruise).
Biased? Yes, I am. In a previous job I flew 3 mutual-support trips into Devon from neighbouring forces in 18 months (D&C offline again) with little evidence of support t'other way. It annoys me to think that our expensive precept goes toward a low-hour, high-expense operation that isn't even based near the geographical OR crime OR population centre of its patch. When forces around the country are having to consider cuts to air cover costs, I'd like to think that the Home Office would send someone with a clear idea of what to look for down to Middlemoor.
[rant mode off]!
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I'd like to think that the Home Office would send someone with a clear idea of what to look for down to Middlemoor.
All points from T & B and 500 are valid one's.
As an engineer myself, I was just expressing my opinion that 2 engineers/ 1 aircraft (for a self-contained operation) is a good set up. I personally work 1 engineer/ 1 aircraft but I have the support of a large-ish company that can cover my absence.....and I cover others.
Look at East Anglia Consortium and the Met.....both self-contained and you don't see 1 engineer/ 1 aircraft there either.
Haven't seen you in ages T & B, don't you fly closer to home anymore?
I won't be local for a while, nodrama - Northern Lighthouse Board have the dubious delights of my company 'til the contract is announced next Feb. Then they can get a real pilot, and I'll be back to spreading myself thinly around the British Isles.
I suppose that in a way I shouldn't complain about the lack of police air cover over W Devon - as I've mentioned in a previous post, on a still-air day you can hear that BK in the cruise over 4 minutes before it reaches you and the row it makes in the hover is enough to put any decent burglar off his house-breaking!
I suppose that in a way I shouldn't complain about the lack of police air cover over W Devon - as I've mentioned in a previous post, on a still-air day you can hear that BK in the cruise over 4 minutes before it reaches you and the row it makes in the hover is enough to put any decent burglar off his house-breaking!
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thanks fortyodd2 for a really well balanced informative reply to what was as i said anunsubstantiated rant from one with no background other than what i see on tv!!! im just old school i guess and i cant begin to get my head around why someone would sue the police if they failed to find a relative.. they would try their best and that should be the end of it....i watch the police tv shows with dread because its clear the ac is being tasked unnecessarily and the bill payers it seems are getting fed up.
and all this in case someone sues them. those who seek to claim should be grateful they have a police force at all and stop being a parasite on society. rant over thanks for the reply i now have a more detailed understanding on the ac dispatch criteria. cheers.
and all this in case someone sues them. those who seek to claim should be grateful they have a police force at all and stop being a parasite on society. rant over thanks for the reply i now have a more detailed understanding on the ac dispatch criteria. cheers.
Cuts
I really fear for the future of UK Police Aviation.
By 2004 it could be argued that we led the world in the efficient use of Police Aircraft. 32 Helicopters and 3 fixed wing all operating from 27 bases. The entire fleet comprising modern twin engined machines all less than 10 years old. Flown by professional pilots and crewed by experienced dedicated & well motivated Police observers.
Co-operation between units was first class with units covering for each other when maintenance was required and sharing intelligence etc etc.
Vehicle pursuits became much shorter as the criminal realised that once the a/c was overhead, escape was almost impossible.
Ram Raiding the scourge of the 80's and early 90's became a thing of the past.
But by 2007 our Senior Police Officers were usually men & women who had never experienced the frustration of trying to catch mobile criminals without the assistance of air support. So when the Politicians and bean counters started to worry about saving money Air Support featured highly.
The bean counter and the Chief Officer tasked with saving money had never heard of the 15-20 minute rule! That rule that we learned in the early days which showed that unless you could get the a/c overhead the incident within 15-20 minutes of its commencement its effectiveness was limited.
The same bean counter and Chief Officer thinks that the countryside, like his map is always flat, never suffers from cloud or bad weather over high ground, and so the drawing of range circles on the map to indicate that you can save on the numbers of a/c might just be badly flawed.
The same bean counter and Chief Officer does not understand that both helicopters and fixed wiing aircraft need maintenance, - quite a lot of it!
So if your circles show that you can make 3 aircraft cover a large region, in reality most of the time you will be struggling with two!
Neither do the clowns realise that in the North West for example where there appear to be several machines in a cluster, there is actually quite a lot of crime up there!
Rural areas,- where the Police helicopter is very often the first resource on the scene, have in the past seen incidents where the aircraft has landed and effected arrests which otherwise would have gone undetected. What now if distances are to be increased?
The real danger is this. There will inevitably be more and more occasions when the a/c is late on scene - because it has had further to come. Because it is late it will be none effective,- the criminal has long gone. How long then before some bright spark starts to say "Air Support is a waste of time, lets save more money & do away with it all together".
Recent events have shown that the criminal now has a healthy respect for the Police Helicopter. Several attacks have been carried out in order to remove the threat. Ironic isn't it that the Bean Counter, the Politician and the green Police Chief might do the job for them!
How long before the poor oppressed criminal of today realises that his tormentor has had its teeth pulled? Whoopee! Open House! -Back to the 80's and 90's again!
Some of the proposals however are very good. Regional Groupings will save money on the need for several UEO's. One PAOC instead of 3 or 4, will save even more. Economies of scale should make fuel and maintenence contracts cheaper. But please,please, - for the reasons above do not reduce the numbers of aircraft. Why not use the less busy ones as Regional spares to lessen down time?
There is one area though that I would argue we need to re-visit and that is the use of Single engined machines.
The single turbine is now far more reliable than in years gone by. Why cannot we use such a machine for Rural areas? The checking of vulnerable but key strategic locations? Photographic work etc etc.
I DO NOT advocate abandoning our twin engined policy for the majority of our work, certainly never for the urban and night time conditions which comprise the majority of our time. BUT there are significant savings to be made on some tasks by a single turbine machine.
Tigerfish
(Old grumpy is getting even grumpier )
By 2004 it could be argued that we led the world in the efficient use of Police Aircraft. 32 Helicopters and 3 fixed wing all operating from 27 bases. The entire fleet comprising modern twin engined machines all less than 10 years old. Flown by professional pilots and crewed by experienced dedicated & well motivated Police observers.
Co-operation between units was first class with units covering for each other when maintenance was required and sharing intelligence etc etc.
Vehicle pursuits became much shorter as the criminal realised that once the a/c was overhead, escape was almost impossible.
Ram Raiding the scourge of the 80's and early 90's became a thing of the past.
But by 2007 our Senior Police Officers were usually men & women who had never experienced the frustration of trying to catch mobile criminals without the assistance of air support. So when the Politicians and bean counters started to worry about saving money Air Support featured highly.
The bean counter and the Chief Officer tasked with saving money had never heard of the 15-20 minute rule! That rule that we learned in the early days which showed that unless you could get the a/c overhead the incident within 15-20 minutes of its commencement its effectiveness was limited.
The same bean counter and Chief Officer thinks that the countryside, like his map is always flat, never suffers from cloud or bad weather over high ground, and so the drawing of range circles on the map to indicate that you can save on the numbers of a/c might just be badly flawed.
The same bean counter and Chief Officer does not understand that both helicopters and fixed wiing aircraft need maintenance, - quite a lot of it!
So if your circles show that you can make 3 aircraft cover a large region, in reality most of the time you will be struggling with two!
Neither do the clowns realise that in the North West for example where there appear to be several machines in a cluster, there is actually quite a lot of crime up there!
Rural areas,- where the Police helicopter is very often the first resource on the scene, have in the past seen incidents where the aircraft has landed and effected arrests which otherwise would have gone undetected. What now if distances are to be increased?
The real danger is this. There will inevitably be more and more occasions when the a/c is late on scene - because it has had further to come. Because it is late it will be none effective,- the criminal has long gone. How long then before some bright spark starts to say "Air Support is a waste of time, lets save more money & do away with it all together".
Recent events have shown that the criminal now has a healthy respect for the Police Helicopter. Several attacks have been carried out in order to remove the threat. Ironic isn't it that the Bean Counter, the Politician and the green Police Chief might do the job for them!
How long before the poor oppressed criminal of today realises that his tormentor has had its teeth pulled? Whoopee! Open House! -Back to the 80's and 90's again!
Some of the proposals however are very good. Regional Groupings will save money on the need for several UEO's. One PAOC instead of 3 or 4, will save even more. Economies of scale should make fuel and maintenence contracts cheaper. But please,please, - for the reasons above do not reduce the numbers of aircraft. Why not use the less busy ones as Regional spares to lessen down time?
There is one area though that I would argue we need to re-visit and that is the use of Single engined machines.
The single turbine is now far more reliable than in years gone by. Why cannot we use such a machine for Rural areas? The checking of vulnerable but key strategic locations? Photographic work etc etc.
I DO NOT advocate abandoning our twin engined policy for the majority of our work, certainly never for the urban and night time conditions which comprise the majority of our time. BUT there are significant savings to be made on some tasks by a single turbine machine.
Tigerfish
(Old grumpy is getting even grumpier )
Last edited by tigerfish; 4th Dec 2009 at 14:20. Reason: Grammer!
Tigerfish,
Grumpy or not - mostly spot on
I'll be sending the first part of your post to the Chief Constable.
The problem as I see it with the singles is that, unless there is a huge change of mind at the CAA then it is unlikely. Remember that all police work is still classed as public transport - hence the need for twins. If the police are being forced to work with fewer aircraft it does not make sense to have some of the fleet that cannot operate over the urban areas. If you can afford to only have one aircraft then that aircraft must be capable of doing everything that you have decided you want to do with it - otherwise you are reducing your capability and along with it your effectiveness. The driving factor behind this review was the need to be able to either do more with the same or the same for less - but as everyone else who has already tried it has discovered - you end up doing less with less.
Grumpy or not - mostly spot on
I'll be sending the first part of your post to the Chief Constable.The problem as I see it with the singles is that, unless there is a huge change of mind at the CAA then it is unlikely. Remember that all police work is still classed as public transport - hence the need for twins. If the police are being forced to work with fewer aircraft it does not make sense to have some of the fleet that cannot operate over the urban areas. If you can afford to only have one aircraft then that aircraft must be capable of doing everything that you have decided you want to do with it - otherwise you are reducing your capability and along with it your effectiveness. The driving factor behind this review was the need to be able to either do more with the same or the same for less - but as everyone else who has already tried it has discovered - you end up doing less with less.
So I guess the proposal that Essex and Kent ASU to use BAe Herti UAV for coastal patrol and general surveillance might be put on the back burner?
Police to launch military-style spy planes - Times Online
And supposedly it does go ahead hope the UK forces still get to keep their aircraft and that the police helicopter is not doomed?
Police to launch military-style spy planes - Times Online
And supposedly it does go ahead hope the UK forces still get to keep their aircraft and that the police helicopter is not doomed?
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Hate it when im proved right..!!
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/315...ml#post3958163
This was always going to happen..
And whilst im under no illusions that i will end up driving a police car again, and earning more money in the process from overtime/spp/bank hols etc.. it will be a crying shame that we will have lost an invaluable resource.
Response time from neighbouring unit (if/when available) will be about 15-20mins...
Pretty useless for pursuits which rarely that last no longer than 4 or 5 mins.
Be interesting when the first protracted pursuit kills someone, and no a/c overhead.. IPCC and civil courts will have a field day..
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/315...ml#post3958163
This was always going to happen..
And whilst im under no illusions that i will end up driving a police car again, and earning more money in the process from overtime/spp/bank hols etc.. it will be a crying shame that we will have lost an invaluable resource.
Response time from neighbouring unit (if/when available) will be about 15-20mins...
Pretty useless for pursuits which rarely that last no longer than 4 or 5 mins.
Be interesting when the first protracted pursuit kills someone, and no a/c overhead.. IPCC and civil courts will have a field day..
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I thought the idea was to save money.
Aside from the not inconsiderable problems of operating them in UK airspace, they are NOT cheap to operate. Have a look at those links; it is clear that the military aerospace companies see a cash-cow.
I am certainly no expert in UAVs, but if they are to be used for police work, I am not sure they will be able to do the same things that existing helicopter ASUs do.
Aside from the not inconsiderable problems of operating them in UK airspace, they are NOT cheap to operate. Have a look at those links; it is clear that the military aerospace companies see a cash-cow.
I am certainly no expert in UAVs, but if they are to be used for police work, I am not sure they will be able to do the same things that existing helicopter ASUs do.
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The UAV argument is the same one as the military has over and over again. Do they need pilots? Answer is always yes!! A UAV can look at one thing at a time, it does not have peripheral vision, it cannot 'look over its shoulder' and see a car making off outside the camera field of view. A crew makes the aircraft FLEXIBLE. Never ever forget this simple fact.
*The Yamaha crop spraying UAVs that are used in Japan and Korea don't seem to need a pilot because they run to a pre-programmed course. But they still need an operator to set that course in the first place.
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The illegal bikers around our neck of the woods are all known to me, and I did not use a helicopter to get that intelligence.
I am no enemy of police helicopters but if the public do not see them being used to good effect then they are doomed.
I am no enemy of police helicopters but if the public do not see them being used to good effect then they are doomed.
Bolkow,
You have raised an important point and one that units do need to take heed of.
I maintain that they are doing an important and valuable job. The evidence is there, the old problems of Ram raiding and extended vehicle chases are almost a thing of the past, but that's also the problem, the evidence is easily overlooked if its not actually causing such a problem anymore.
In addition, the units themselves have forgotten the importance of publicising their successes. They did in the early days, but as the Air support Unit became just another part of operational Policing they forgot the need to keep reminding people just how effective they are and what a deterent they are.
Still, - if the bean counters and politicians get their way, we will all soon find out what an effective deterrant to street crime they have been.
Whoopee! Open house for the joy rider, ram raider and mugger. Pity too the poor old copper getting a beating on the street and no low light camera and Flir to finger the offender with.
Thats the problem with being an effective deterrant. Its all quiet now so the bean counter decides your not needed any more, you're a luxury that can be done away with. - Just what the criminal wants!
Dammit, Bolkow you got me Grumpy again!
Tigerfish
You have raised an important point and one that units do need to take heed of.
I maintain that they are doing an important and valuable job. The evidence is there, the old problems of Ram raiding and extended vehicle chases are almost a thing of the past, but that's also the problem, the evidence is easily overlooked if its not actually causing such a problem anymore.
In addition, the units themselves have forgotten the importance of publicising their successes. They did in the early days, but as the Air support Unit became just another part of operational Policing they forgot the need to keep reminding people just how effective they are and what a deterent they are.
Still, - if the bean counters and politicians get their way, we will all soon find out what an effective deterrant to street crime they have been.
Whoopee! Open house for the joy rider, ram raider and mugger. Pity too the poor old copper getting a beating on the street and no low light camera and Flir to finger the offender with.
Thats the problem with being an effective deterrant. Its all quiet now so the bean counter decides your not needed any more, you're a luxury that can be done away with. - Just what the criminal wants!
Dammit, Bolkow you got me Grumpy again!
Tigerfish