Another Attack On A Police Helicopter

[SASless]

the airport had security by private and police with very regular patrols,

Did we become predictable did we?


Anyway one tries to explain it away....the end result is the same....Plod walked on their Willy on this one!

Not the Airport, not the very regular patrols, not the Tea Girl.....but the Plod Air Unit and their Plod management responsible for the Operation.

I know this is the very first time in history a Police Aircraft has ever been attacked and all but really folks!

As a famous poster here once said...."The longer you try to prove a problem does not exist....the bigger the problem really is!" (Or words to that effect by Nick Lappos)

[SilsoeSid]

I for one am dying to hear someone who is big enough to stick their head over the top, and say what else should/could have been done to prevent this.

If that is too difficult, please explain the differences if it was the visiting Saudi Royal family Airbus that was fire bombed!

[SASless]

Like the Saudi King's aircraft is left unattended....try another one please.

[Cron]

Well, if I was young enough to make doing CPL(H) worthwhile, or I was a newly minted CPL(H) or a redundant CPL(H) and I lived commutable to B'ham then my letter would be in the post now..

Dear Sir, on a Friday and Saturday nights ..
I can sweep the ramp,
stand guard,
make the tea,
stand guard,
clean the a/c,
stand guard,
collect and prepare meals,
stand guard,
clean offices etc

In exchange for:
no pay,
the occasional bit of advice from the CP,
permission to put involvement with Police Air Unit on my CV,
being based on an International Airport,
being surrounded by aviation professionals,
being plugged into a huge aviation network.

But I guess 'elf and safety or regulations or some such would prevent such a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Regards

Cron.

[SilsoeSid]

Like the Saudi King's aircraft is left unattended....try another one please.

It won't be any more!

[aeromys]

Originally Posted by SASless

...I know this is the very first time in history a Police Aircraft has ever been attacked and all but really folks!...

There's another problem, all the National publicity this and the recent previous attacks have had is just going to spur on every little yob who wants to make a name for himself. Most of them didn't realise just how vulnerable the Police heli's were, and among the Police Air Ops community there must be serious concerns now about just how big a fortress they will have to build around their assets and yet still be able to provide a rapid response

[John Eacott]

I was surprised at the lack of security at UK airfields, compared to the overkill that we have in Australia. Nearly all Australian city airports now have razor wire boundary fences, double gate access for vehicles, and grants from the Federal Government to pay for the mandated upgrades required. That includes GA fields, not just RPT.

Most of us here view it all as both OTT and another cost to aviation that has little relevance in our part of the world. All in the name of anti terrorism security, but the cost and inconvenience of ASIC (security cards required for ALL pilots), getting to and from aircraft, etc, is a royal PITA. Plus a legal requirement to secure and immobilise any aircraft left outside a secure hangar, anywhere, any time of the day

But it makes leaving an aircraft on the ramp overnight in Australia just a little bit more secure than appears to be the case in the UK

[ShyTorque]

It's by no means the first attack on a Police aircraft in UK.

Some criminal gangs, mindful of a "job" coming up, might decide they don't want airborne observation and pursuit in the equation.

Liverpool and North Midlands ASU have both had attacks in the past; the latter was unsuccessful because of precautions already in place.

[heli-cal]

SilsoeSid said;

So when I come round your house in the middle of the night, kick down the front door, run up to your bedroom, where I hold a knife to your wife's throat and say "give me your car keys", what part of your personal responsibility for your personal possessions should you have followed more attentively?

In the unlikely event that you, in your capacity as an armed intruder actually manage to kick down the front door and entered the premises with the intentions as described, you would immediately be met with lawful, defensive force.

You wouldn't make it further than the wreckage of the front door!

[jayteeto]

Well done you then. The next part of the escalation is that they come back a few days later with a gun because you 'disrespected' them. You become another statistic. It goes slightly off thread, but this is what you are up against:

icLiverpool - Gang revenge theory after Croxteth Lobster pub shooting

[SilsoeSid]

HeliCraig,

They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to.

'They' are more than capable of protecting the aircraft, now that IS a fact. However, I'm sure you were happier that those resources were out patrolling the Bullring helping 'Mrs Miggins' find the train station!


Go on HC, simply say what protection should have been in force!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

The standards of immediate security now need to be re-defined.

The helicopter should be in a secure hangar, on a motorised trolley, wheeled in and out before and after every job.

Done properly, this should add no more than 30 seconds to the "Bat Phone" response.

"Hanging Out" in other peoples hangars, that are not suitable for immediate launch will not work.

WYPA have the ideal formula, (and their hangar blends in with the Countryside too.)

I still have to laugh at the word "Countryside" after Stephen Frys definition as follows:

COUNTRYSIDE - THE MURDER OF PIERS MORGAN.

Cracks me up every time (Sorry Piers).

[volrider]

SS sounds like helicraig has a dose of the 9 o'clock shudders...."you should have done that and this"
Amazing with hindisght maybe we could vote for him at the next election all our problems with society would be solved!!
Sadly the bookies are full of such experts moving mouths but empty pockets

[SilsoeSid]

HeliCal,

How long do you think it will take me to get up those stairs?
Not as long as you'd take unlocking your secure cabinet!!

[HeliCraig]

Originally Posted by SiloeSid

I for one am dying to hear someone who is big enough to stick their head over the top, and say what else should/could have been done to prevent this.

Originally Posted by SiloeSid

'They' are more than capable of protecting the aircraft, now that IS a fact. However, I'm sure you were happier that those resources were out patrolling the Bullring helping 'Mrs Miggins' find the train station!

Go on HC, simply say what protection should have been in force!

To be clear, by "they" I mean the police force as a whole and certainly not any individuals, as I have stated previously.

I have also said previously that I have worked in a warehouse which provided an instant alert if the fence was so much as touched. Looking at the size of the hole cut in the fence at BHX, I think its a fair bet that this would have provided either airport security or WMP sufficient time to go and investigate the fence panel reporting a tamper, or at least get them in the area and perhaps limit the damage by reducing time taken to get the AFRS on scene. I would add that this warehouse belonged to a large American company, and the contents... jeans. So I think it is a reasonable expectation that the 6th biggest airport in the UK had something more advanced than a simple wire mesh fence.

And in even simpler terms, I refer to ShyTorques post:

Originally Posted by ShyTorque

Liverpool and North Midlands ASU have both had attacks in the past; the latter was unsuccessful because of precautions already in place.

So perhaps WMP should should speak to NMASU and see what can be done?

Or, perhaps jayteeto's post:

Originally Posted by jayteeto

One unit near us has a purpose built electrified fortress that is excellent for the job, not perfect, but nearly so. Maybe that, plus a dedicated security man 24/7 will solve the problem at other units. So Mr Council Tax payer, this needs to be funded from somewhere, cough up £??? on next years bill. That will go down well........

However, he validly raises the point about cost. An "electrified fortress" is a one off cost, certainly less than the $5m ish it will cost for a new helicopter; a 24/7 security guard, while still being cheaper than a new heli has much longer term connotations.

This strikes at the heart of my point, it isn't the individuals concerned, its the fact that WMP have assessed the risk to be too low and I think relied too heavily on BHX for security.

So Sid, there are a few suggestions. I am trying to non emotive here, but you've made several emotive statements to further your point (that you can't stop a determined criminal), for instance about holding a knife to someones neck etc... I fully understand what you're trying to say - but you must surely admit that WMP could have done more to protect what I expect is their most expensive single asset?

[SilsoeSid]

I'm beginning to wonder if this is related to the UFO encounter roughly this time last year?
Close Encounter
Should we expect an alien invasion as the ac was clearly taken out to minimise the chance of detection?

[HeliCraig]

Originally Posted by volrider

SS sounds like helicraig has a dose of the 9 o'clock shudders...."you should have done that and this"
Amazing with hindisght maybe we could vote for him at the next election all our problems with society would be solved!!
Sadly the bookies are full of such experts moving mouths but empty pockets

Vol, as far as possible I have resisted the temptation to resort to personal comments. I don't even know you, so perhaps you could extend the same courtesy?

Now, to address your point... Yes, obviously I am looking at the incident with hindsight. However not from a "you should have done XYZ" stand point; but from one of surprise that at least one off X, Y or Z wasn't already in place.

I think most people would be surprised how relatively easy it is to gain access to an airfield in the UK, but I think that people expect better of the big airports; and as I have said in my previous post - its not at a massive cost.. especially against the cost of replacing the aircraft.

The telling indictment will be what, if anything, the insurance have to say and what, if any, improvements they require. Of course, joe public will never know this.

I should point out though that I agree with SS that it is impossible to stop a determined individual. All you can do is make it difficult for them and minimise the risk of them being able to carry out their aims (be that buring your helicopter, or burgling your house). On the face of it, in this case, it looks like there was more that could have been done very simply to frustrate that individual and / or minimise the damage; and other ASU's have done this already!

Oh, and never even set foot in a bookies!

[SilsoeSid]

You can't stop a determined criminal

1. Razor wired, electrified and alarmed fence around the airfield.
2. Defences on the airfields property
3. 24/7 security guard

Ever heard of Northern Ireland!!!!

[chevvron]

If extra security is required, I'll bet there are a few thousand ex Ghurka's around who would be ideally suited and might be looking for a job to top up their meagre pensions 'cos Brown will do everything he can to short change them after being humiliated by 'Patsy'.

[SilsoeSid]

Hopefully my last on this.

Lets just be thankful no-one was hurt.
We can have all the defences we want, all the protection, all the dedicated armed guards, hardened sangars, all the financial backing to protect, but all that was in place in Crossmaglen in 1994.

A Lynx was still taken out, by a mortar, as it came in to land. Fortunately no-one was seriously injured.

Perhaps it is a good thing that they were able to get onto the airfield and do it this way. Better be looking for arsonist than a murderer. With all the defences in the world in place, it would be easier for them to take it out while in the air than on the ground...unoccupied!

TTFN