Super Puma down central North Sea Feb 2009
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speculation
I realise this is a rumour network, but surely it's very niave to expect the company involved to put out an official statement at this point. Less than 72 hours after the incident (post #176), Bond were being criticised for not having issued anything to the general public. Sure the offshore companies have a moral and legal responsiblity to communicate with other users of the aircraft, as well as the aircraft manufacturers, if they discover a safety issue. I'd like to think they also have a moral responsibilty to their employees welfare, which includes not making any statements which may cause them any additional stress at what will be a very unpleasant time for them. At this early stage if Bond were to issue a statement, it would inevitably be very vague due to lack of all the facts as the investiagtion has only just begun. What exactly would this achieve apart from cause speculation due to the lack of any specifics in the statement regarding cause? At this point the AAIB will know at least as much, and probably more, about the incident than the operator. If there is any pressing need for a statement to come out on the issue of aircraft safety, then i'd assume that it would be published immediately by them. I know that if i were involved in any kind of accident i'd appreciate the support of my employers at least until the full facts came out.
Last edited by AndyJB32; 24th Feb 2009 at 11:06.
Andy,
Do you think for one second the company will really support you after an accident? When you find yourself in court defending against a civil proceeding....do you think the "company" will provide "you" legal counsel?
Be realistic here....the "company" will protect you to the extent it protects "it" and not a bit beyond that.
When it comes to accepting liability every company has very rounded shoulders!
Do you think for one second the company will really support you after an accident? When you find yourself in court defending against a civil proceeding....do you think the "company" will provide "you" legal counsel?
Be realistic here....the "company" will protect you to the extent it protects "it" and not a bit beyond that.
When it comes to accepting liability every company has very rounded shoulders!
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Lawyers!
SAS - you are so right. I remember one poor sod who had a conversation with his boss along the lines........
"well boss, when do we have the next meeting with our lawyers so that we can discuss my defence?"
"Listen son," said the suited leader of men, "the lawyer we spoke to yesterday is OUR lawyer...... not YOUR lawyer, you need to find your own."
You can imagine the look on his face, to use the expression 'crestfallen' is an understatement to say the least. Until that moment he thought that he was the member of a 'team' and that we were all in it together. Fat chance. If they think you might have screwed up then they're off like a scalded cat and to be honest you can't blame them. It all part of the game but nobody explains that to you when thay pat you on the back and say 'welcome on board'. It's sad though, nonetheless.
G
"well boss, when do we have the next meeting with our lawyers so that we can discuss my defence?"
"Listen son," said the suited leader of men, "the lawyer we spoke to yesterday is OUR lawyer...... not YOUR lawyer, you need to find your own."
You can imagine the look on his face, to use the expression 'crestfallen' is an understatement to say the least. Until that moment he thought that he was the member of a 'team' and that we were all in it together. Fat chance. If they think you might have screwed up then they're off like a scalded cat and to be honest you can't blame them. It all part of the game but nobody explains that to you when thay pat you on the back and say 'welcome on board'. It's sad though, nonetheless.
G
I am not aware of any aircraft ditching previously, without the floats already inflated
[Edit] Haverirapport - HKP 10 - H91 (pic of the heli)
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SASless
hello, i think if any off us get to the point where we're in civil court defending our actions, then we had better have our own independent legal cover. However, at the initial stage of an investigation, unless it was clear that i'd messed up, i'd expect some form of support from my work. Even if that support is merely not putting out a statement that may suggest the crews' responsibility for the accident.
Andy
Andy
Andy,
Ye who expects nothing out of life is rarely disappointed!
Hope springs eternal!
Wish in one hand....spit in the other...see which one fills up first!
I have some beautiful waterfront property in Florida to sell you!
Read my post and think about what I said.....they will protect/support you right up to the instant it is no longer in "their" interests....then you can count on dancing your own jig. There are creatures on this planet that will eat their own young to survive....the helicopter industry is no different in that regard.
Ye who expects nothing out of life is rarely disappointed!
Hope springs eternal!
Wish in one hand....spit in the other...see which one fills up first!
I have some beautiful waterfront property in Florida to sell you!
Read my post and think about what I said.....they will protect/support you right up to the instant it is no longer in "their" interests....then you can count on dancing your own jig. There are creatures on this planet that will eat their own young to survive....the helicopter industry is no different in that regard.
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EGPWS
Ground Proximity Warning System
Part of the Terrain Awareness and Warning System, the GPWS function is a function providing alerts for excessive terrain closure rate, inadvertent descents, altitude loss after takeoff, excessive bank angle or pitch attitude as well as excessive descent below an ILS Glide-Slope.
Drakkar
Part of the Terrain Awareness and Warning System, the GPWS function is a function providing alerts for excessive terrain closure rate, inadvertent descents, altitude loss after takeoff, excessive bank angle or pitch attitude as well as excessive descent below an ILS Glide-Slope.
Drakkar
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I think it means "Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System"
It doesn't just calculate the distance from lumpy bits but speed vector, AC attitude, ROD trends in an effort to "Predict" a potential CFIT (or W).
Andy BJ - I take your point but all of us currently flying over the sea at night believe that to release not even a hint of what might have caused it, despite 2 walking talking crewmembers is unforgivable given their ongoing responsibilites to their existing customers and passengers, their own pilots and the other AOC operators providing similar services.
I have every sympathy for the crew, there by the grace of god an all that....but I think as airman we owe it too all concerned to get at least a statement out...and please do not miss the point here...
EVEN IF IT IS - "WE HAVE ABSOLUTLEY NO IDEA AT THIS TIME"
We can all speculate..I know I have and come up with an interim conclusion,. As intelligent people we owe it to ourselves to evaluate what has happened and consider carefully any immediate response that we may have...I know I have.
Worrying unduly about the state of the crew is not ever in the best interests of the passengers and sets us right back into the dark ages. We all run the risk of having an incident but surely our first and foremost concern must be the ongoing safety of the operation.
I am sorry if it upsets anyone but I think it is total bullsh**t to adopt the wall of silence we are all currently experiencing.
Shame on them and I feel sorry for their PAX who are (as are our PAX) asking the same question every single day at the heliport - WHAT CAUSED IT. The PAX are not idiots, they all say the same thing - WHAT DID THE PILOTS SAY HAPPENED??? It is a shocking indictment of management culture that we cannot answer them!!!
It doesn't just calculate the distance from lumpy bits but speed vector, AC attitude, ROD trends in an effort to "Predict" a potential CFIT (or W).
Andy BJ - I take your point but all of us currently flying over the sea at night believe that to release not even a hint of what might have caused it, despite 2 walking talking crewmembers is unforgivable given their ongoing responsibilites to their existing customers and passengers, their own pilots and the other AOC operators providing similar services.
I have every sympathy for the crew, there by the grace of god an all that....but I think as airman we owe it too all concerned to get at least a statement out...and please do not miss the point here...
EVEN IF IT IS - "WE HAVE ABSOLUTLEY NO IDEA AT THIS TIME"
We can all speculate..I know I have and come up with an interim conclusion,. As intelligent people we owe it to ourselves to evaluate what has happened and consider carefully any immediate response that we may have...I know I have.
Worrying unduly about the state of the crew is not ever in the best interests of the passengers and sets us right back into the dark ages. We all run the risk of having an incident but surely our first and foremost concern must be the ongoing safety of the operation.
I am sorry if it upsets anyone but I think it is total bullsh**t to adopt the wall of silence we are all currently experiencing.
Shame on them and I feel sorry for their PAX who are (as are our PAX) asking the same question every single day at the heliport - WHAT CAUSED IT. The PAX are not idiots, they all say the same thing - WHAT DID THE PILOTS SAY HAPPENED??? It is a shocking indictment of management culture that we cannot answer them!!!
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Fair points DB and Helimutt. Hopefully now AAIB have all the bits and statements etc, something will be said in the not too distant future. Like everyone, I get asked the question, not just by my passengers but by people who know I am "in the trade". All I can respond, is that I don't fly the 225, just the Mk 1's (Yes I know thats a bit of a smoke screen), and that, hopefully we will hear something soon. What more can you say?
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Double Bogie,
At risk of descending this thread into a downward spiral, please don't assume that all North Sea pilots think the silence is wrong and that the tail didn't come off in flight - (I AM NOT SAYING IT DID OR IT DIDN'T - I DON'T CARE AT THIS STAGE). I am quite happy to give the powers that be time to work it out and tell us when they are ready.
For those of us who fly in that environment, on that type else where and those that maintain it, it is time as professionals to look at all the maybes and do what we can to prevent something similar happening to us. It would be a shame to fixate on only one of the possible causes.
At risk of descending this thread into a downward spiral, please don't assume that all North Sea pilots think the silence is wrong and that the tail didn't come off in flight - (I AM NOT SAYING IT DID OR IT DIDN'T - I DON'T CARE AT THIS STAGE). I am quite happy to give the powers that be time to work it out and tell us when they are ready.
For those of us who fly in that environment, on that type else where and those that maintain it, it is time as professionals to look at all the maybes and do what we can to prevent something similar happening to us. It would be a shame to fixate on only one of the possible causes.
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Droopystop,
You need to look at the Tail Rotor blades, smashed beyond repair, caused at a wild guess, by rotating at speed prior to impact with the water!!!!
Nobody is focusing on anything right now cos nobody "Knows" anything other than what can be conjectured from the images we have seen.
I am not an aerdynamic specialist, but if the tail "fell off" inflight I am convinced that the resulting yaw rate, coupled with a massive unfavourable change in the CG (way beyond the limits) would cause a far less favourable outcome than a main fuselgae, sat upright on its floats and the ensuing orderly evacuation.
Whilst this is a rumour network surely it may also accommodate the odd calculated speculation.
Make of what you see.......what you will.
In my considered view it hit the sea intact. The question remains what made it hit the sea?
The silence, as ever, deafening from those who must by now have a fairly good idea of at least what started the incident.
However, If I am in minority of a few, so be it, but to not press hard for information is surely the biggest dis-service to all concerned.
You need to look at the Tail Rotor blades, smashed beyond repair, caused at a wild guess, by rotating at speed prior to impact with the water!!!!
Nobody is focusing on anything right now cos nobody "Knows" anything other than what can be conjectured from the images we have seen.
I am not an aerdynamic specialist, but if the tail "fell off" inflight I am convinced that the resulting yaw rate, coupled with a massive unfavourable change in the CG (way beyond the limits) would cause a far less favourable outcome than a main fuselgae, sat upright on its floats and the ensuing orderly evacuation.
Whilst this is a rumour network surely it may also accommodate the odd calculated speculation.
Make of what you see.......what you will.
In my considered view it hit the sea intact. The question remains what made it hit the sea?
The silence, as ever, deafening from those who must by now have a fairly good idea of at least what started the incident.
However, If I am in minority of a few, so be it, but to not press hard for information is surely the biggest dis-service to all concerned.
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I think we're all equally keen for info to come out, just that some of us (myself included) are happy to wait until there is something worthwhile to say, and hopefully then the info that comes out is accurate.
Andy
Andy
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Squib I do not mean to be rude but please cut the cryptic crap. I do not wnat to get clipped by the MOD so I am being nice now.
I see after just one day...the investagators into the Turkish crash (FAA assisted according to the R&N thread) have released a statement claiming possible engine malfunction.
Here we are almost 10 days later and not a peep on the 225.
All those with the luxury of patience (ie not flying a 332) please feel free to leap in with your pointless crys for endless patience and you will be ignored.
Anyone who does fly a 332 and thinks the stunning silnce is OK lets hear from you. (East Side boys under duress need not apply).
DB
I see after just one day...the investagators into the Turkish crash (FAA assisted according to the R&N thread) have released a statement claiming possible engine malfunction.
Here we are almost 10 days later and not a peep on the 225.
All those with the luxury of patience (ie not flying a 332) please feel free to leap in with your pointless crys for endless patience and you will be ignored.
Anyone who does fly a 332 and thinks the stunning silnce is OK lets hear from you. (East Side boys under duress need not apply).
DB