Super Puma down central North Sea Feb 2009
I have crashed an aircraft and walked away when the tail rotor seperated in flight.... It is not a pleasant experience 
Regardless of the cause of this accident when it washes up, the crew and passengers will never be the same again... I suspect most speculators on this thread are fortunate enough NOT to have had the misfortune of a serious accident in their careers..... Spare a thought for the poor bastards that now have and wait for the AAIB report. 
Regardless of the cause of this accident when it washes up, the crew and passengers will never be the same again... I suspect most speculators on this thread are fortunate enough NOT to have had the misfortune of a serious accident in their careers..... Spare a thought for the poor bastards that now have and wait for the AAIB report.
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Hit something
HeliEng posted
"MSN news are now reporting that the aircraft hit something in the fog:
Crash copter 'hit something in fog' - , - Latest news & weather forecasts - MSN News UK "
Speculation of course, but could that have been the tail coming off? Would have possibly felt like an impact. Would also perhaps explain the lack of warning from the crew as they will have been busy trying to stop it spinning round ?
"MSN news are now reporting that the aircraft hit something in the fog:
Crash copter 'hit something in fog' - , - Latest news & weather forecasts - MSN News UK "
Speculation of course, but could that have been the tail coming off? Would have possibly felt like an impact. Would also perhaps explain the lack of warning from the crew as they will have been busy trying to stop it spinning round ?
EC225 Ditching North Sea - New Sensible Thread
The EC225 that ditched on approach to the ETAP platform on Wednesday has finally been recovered to a support vessel and will be recovered to Aberdeen harbour shortly. The airframe is then expected to be transferred to Farnborough for a detailed examination.
To my knowledge the tail cone and 'Black Box' has not been located and / or recovered.
Please can we start a new thread on this incident and keep this one clear of all the mud throwing that seems to have swamped the other. This one for all evidence and genuine information on this important event please.
S25
To my knowledge the tail cone and 'Black Box' has not been located and / or recovered.
Please can we start a new thread on this incident and keep this one clear of all the mud throwing that seems to have swamped the other. This one for all evidence and genuine information on this important event please.
S25
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I'm sure that the investigation team will make the decision to ground these types of aircraft IF and WHEN it becomes apparent that there was a mechanical malfunction that could affect the safe flying of other airframes. Note my use of capitals!
No reputable company would jeopordise the safe operation of their aircraft if this could be better effected by the release of pertinant information.
The AAIB have an excellent reputation worldwide, and this is due, in no small part, to the meticulous manner in which EVIDENCE is used to obtain the facts.
No reputable company would jeopordise the safe operation of their aircraft if this could be better effected by the release of pertinant information.
The AAIB have an excellent reputation worldwide, and this is due, in no small part, to the meticulous manner in which EVIDENCE is used to obtain the facts.
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DOUBLEBOGEY
In the Bristow incident that I referred to people were VERY quick to start making statements on the possible reasons (or not) for the accident. They were proved to be VERY wrong. Maybe people have learned from this and would rather verify facts BEFORE they release them. Wrong information can be fatal.
And, for what it is worth, no I don't strap one of EC's finest to my @rse. However, family and friends do on a regular basis and I have more than a passing interest in why this particular accident happened. And with over 20 years in aviation I also have a lot of faith in the AAIB to respond appropriately.
In the Bristow incident that I referred to people were VERY quick to start making statements on the possible reasons (or not) for the accident. They were proved to be VERY wrong. Maybe people have learned from this and would rather verify facts BEFORE they release them. Wrong information can be fatal.
And, for what it is worth, no I don't strap one of EC's finest to my @rse. However, family and friends do on a regular basis and I have more than a passing interest in why this particular accident happened. And with over 20 years in aviation I also have a lot of faith in the AAIB to respond appropriately.
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Hi Big Tudor,
I am not sure if you fly at all, forgive me if you do, but the issue is whether the AC let them down. Lets reverse the argument.
I HOPE THE AC DID NOT LET THEM DOWN.
Not because I want to blame the crew.....but because all the movers and shakers up here are peddling the line that we should continue to operate the 225 and the remaining 332 family without a single shred of evidence provided to us that THIS DECISION IS VALID.
Get the point now!
A single line statement woiuld do....hell I'll make one up
WE DO NOT BELIEVE AT THIS TIME THAT IT WAS AN AIRCRAFT AIRWORTHINESS ISSUE.
ENDEX, wait the obligatory period for the AAIB to release a very proper and thorough report in about 1 years time.
I am not sure if you fly at all, forgive me if you do, but the issue is whether the AC let them down. Lets reverse the argument.
I HOPE THE AC DID NOT LET THEM DOWN.
Not because I want to blame the crew.....but because all the movers and shakers up here are peddling the line that we should continue to operate the 225 and the remaining 332 family without a single shred of evidence provided to us that THIS DECISION IS VALID.
Get the point now!
A single line statement woiuld do....hell I'll make one up
WE DO NOT BELIEVE AT THIS TIME THAT IT WAS AN AIRCRAFT AIRWORTHINESS ISSUE.
ENDEX, wait the obligatory period for the AAIB to release a very proper and thorough report in about 1 years time.
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Have any of the other operators of this helicopter type issued any statements to existing customers whilst it continues in daily service , inorder to placate the relevant personnel and offshore troops 
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Double Bogie,
As far as I can asertain, they only recovered the aircraft today and the back of a dive support vessel is not the place to start the investigation. Until there is evidence to justify grounding the fleet, EC nor the operators can justify grounding the aircraft.
Similarly I doubt a type can be grounded on the statements of aircrew, pax and observers. The fact there was no mayday or tannoy brief would indicate the crew were too busy flying to know what had caused their predicament.
As far as I can asertain, they only recovered the aircraft today and the back of a dive support vessel is not the place to start the investigation. Until there is evidence to justify grounding the fleet, EC nor the operators can justify grounding the aircraft.
Similarly I doubt a type can be grounded on the statements of aircrew, pax and observers. The fact there was no mayday or tannoy brief would indicate the crew were too busy flying to know what had caused their predicament.
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Careful, I never said anything about Human/Pilot error!!!!
Ignoring the fact that the pilot was probably a human...
What professional would take off in:
ICING conditions outwith the A/C icing clearance;
areas of known LIGHTNING (or LIGHTENING (sic) activity);
with a forecast that suggested LINE SQUALLS and;
WIND SHEAR, using;
INCORRECT PROCEDURES;
not to mention not taking account of the COLD GAS FLARING;
or the RIG TURBINE EFFLUX
So, that just leaves incapacitation, then. Or birdstrike.
Sorted.
What professional would take off in:
ICING conditions outwith the A/C icing clearance;
areas of known LIGHTNING (or LIGHTENING (sic) activity);
with a forecast that suggested LINE SQUALLS and;
WIND SHEAR, using;
INCORRECT PROCEDURES;
not to mention not taking account of the COLD GAS FLARING;
or the RIG TURBINE EFFLUX
So, that just leaves incapacitation, then. Or birdstrike.
Sorted.
I do not understand why the CVFDR is installed in the tailboom, if true. It should be in the hull not in an area which can be detached. The unit should have a underwater beacon attached to aid recovery, so hopefully, it should be found eventually.
A couple of thoughts
Some AOC operators have it written in their Ops Manuals that crew are to be quarantined after an accident or incident, this may explain why no one at company seems to know anything.
I had a look and the AAIB special bulletin on G-BLUN took over a month to release, so perhaps a couple of days after the fact is being a bit over optimistic, yes they probably have an idea, but what are they supposed to do ? publish their feelings without much supporting evidence and then get criticised for releasing incorrect information.
Regardless of what actually happened and I have no idea what did, one thing to think about is that although the crew are alive and well and may well make credible witnesses, I was recently on a course with a pilot who put a 10 tonne plus helicopter into the sea, he had the presence of mind to write up what happened while he was in hospital later that day, his was a controlled ditching for a given reason, when they fished it out of the sea what he thought had happened wasn't quite how he recalled it even though he specifically spent the time to write it up. I think that has a lesson for all of us who may be involved in aircraft accidents. In particular with regard to jumping to conclusions (or the lack of them).
I sincerely doubt any North Sea operator with the spotlight on them like this would withhold flight safety information relating to a type the competition operates, there may be communications behind the scenes that no one knows about yet, but it would be good for the guys who have to get in them and fly them to know what they think is going on.
If (big If) there is no communication between the operators, you would imagine they have noticed that this has happened, someone, somewhere must have decided its not a problem for their fleets to keep flying as it would be more than embarassing to find out later there was a flight safety issue and they kept on flying, and yes I am playing devils advocate here, but I don't expect the senior managers of one operator decide whether the others keep on flying, if the others are bothered they would surely stop of their own accord.
And before anyone asks, I have no North Sea experience , and have never flown anything bigger than a 109, I am just trying to look at this with a balanced set of eyes (and perhaps failing).
GS
PS I Wholeheartedly disagree with the media bringing the captains personal life into this, if it is an issue that really is for the AAIB to look at, not them. I am sure that we all have in our personal lives stuff that the whole country has no bloody business knowing about.
Some AOC operators have it written in their Ops Manuals that crew are to be quarantined after an accident or incident, this may explain why no one at company seems to know anything.
I had a look and the AAIB special bulletin on G-BLUN took over a month to release, so perhaps a couple of days after the fact is being a bit over optimistic, yes they probably have an idea, but what are they supposed to do ? publish their feelings without much supporting evidence and then get criticised for releasing incorrect information.
Regardless of what actually happened and I have no idea what did, one thing to think about is that although the crew are alive and well and may well make credible witnesses, I was recently on a course with a pilot who put a 10 tonne plus helicopter into the sea, he had the presence of mind to write up what happened while he was in hospital later that day, his was a controlled ditching for a given reason, when they fished it out of the sea what he thought had happened wasn't quite how he recalled it even though he specifically spent the time to write it up. I think that has a lesson for all of us who may be involved in aircraft accidents. In particular with regard to jumping to conclusions (or the lack of them).
I sincerely doubt any North Sea operator with the spotlight on them like this would withhold flight safety information relating to a type the competition operates, there may be communications behind the scenes that no one knows about yet, but it would be good for the guys who have to get in them and fly them to know what they think is going on.
If (big If) there is no communication between the operators, you would imagine they have noticed that this has happened, someone, somewhere must have decided its not a problem for their fleets to keep flying as it would be more than embarassing to find out later there was a flight safety issue and they kept on flying, and yes I am playing devils advocate here, but I don't expect the senior managers of one operator decide whether the others keep on flying, if the others are bothered they would surely stop of their own accord.
And before anyone asks, I have no North Sea experience , and have never flown anything bigger than a 109, I am just trying to look at this with a balanced set of eyes (and perhaps failing).
GS
PS I Wholeheartedly disagree with the media bringing the captains personal life into this, if it is an issue that really is for the AAIB to look at, not them. I am sure that we all have in our personal lives stuff that the whole country has no bloody business knowing about.
Last edited by VeeAny; 22nd Feb 2009 at 06:40. Reason: Missed words out.
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VeeAny
Very well put and seconded on all scores. Correct information is far better than knee jerk response, and getting that information can take time.
Most companies have in place a crew quarantine and info management policy to try to avoid the knee jerk answers getting into the media.
Let's hope that some useful info does get released soon, and let's also hope that this thread can stay a little more on track from now on.
Most companies have in place a crew quarantine and info management policy to try to avoid the knee jerk answers getting into the media.
Let's hope that some useful info does get released soon, and let's also hope that this thread can stay a little more on track from now on.
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I don't normally post on these types of forums however often an avid reader. So please forgive me to intrude onto this thread with my first post.
In my work I have a fair experience of working along side Bond Offshore and other oil industry helicopter operators, I have had the pleasure of meeting the Captain in question on a number of occasions and found him to be a very polite and courteous guy who I feel is thoroughly professional.
I find it abhorrent that he and his families personal matters have been dished out by the gutterpress, that is a private matter that should remain that way unless the AAIB feel it does somehow be a factor, even then the details need not be wholly public.
I do think that the lack of some form of statement from either the AAIB or Bond is not doing anyone any favours at this time. I realise that it can be best to wait until all areas have been investigated and then release the findings but this incident is attracting a lot of attention.
Articles like the one above about the WX fax does not help the industry, the Pax and relatives of those Pax when they travel using these machines.
I know, like many, that an actual WX report at 1200 does not mean that it will be the same at 1230 or 1300. Not everyone who is reading these "news" stories will comprehend that and the inaccuracy of the article: "conditions were CLEAR" a forecast using the past tense and the statement to the effect that forecasts are produced by rigs and not ACTUAL reports as is the case.
The end of the article is an inference that Pilots & Crews are under pressure to complete their task despite the WX or other factors that may affect safety. I do know from personal experience Bond and their Pilots do not operate like that nor do Bristow & CHC for that matter (and I'm sure other operators). To the outside world these kind of articles read like the industry is operating with a do it or be damned attitude and screw safety.
The silence speaks volumes, unfortunately the speaking is being done by the ill educated gossip monger's flogging bog paper to be.
Surely after this amount of time there must be a focus for the investigation, even if it's not a single factor. Or if there isn't a focus there can surely be some form of statement "The cause is unclear, All avenues are being investigated we hope to issue a further statement in x days".
Even now on Bonds glossy, image concious, website under their News section there is nothing. Not even a piece to say that there has been an incident but all persons are safe and well and it is being investigated etc. etc.
It really doesn't make the situation look professional. There can surely be some unspinned, unbull****ted, short, simplistic statement to be put out by now.
My drivel is over. Whatever **** happened out there, well done to all involved to bring this to a happy conclusion.......well, maybe not the hull underwriters happy conclusion
In my work I have a fair experience of working along side Bond Offshore and other oil industry helicopter operators, I have had the pleasure of meeting the Captain in question on a number of occasions and found him to be a very polite and courteous guy who I feel is thoroughly professional.
I find it abhorrent that he and his families personal matters have been dished out by the gutterpress, that is a private matter that should remain that way unless the AAIB feel it does somehow be a factor, even then the details need not be wholly public.
I do think that the lack of some form of statement from either the AAIB or Bond is not doing anyone any favours at this time. I realise that it can be best to wait until all areas have been investigated and then release the findings but this incident is attracting a lot of attention.
Articles like the one above about the WX fax does not help the industry, the Pax and relatives of those Pax when they travel using these machines.
I know, like many, that an actual WX report at 1200 does not mean that it will be the same at 1230 or 1300. Not everyone who is reading these "news" stories will comprehend that and the inaccuracy of the article: "conditions were CLEAR" a forecast using the past tense and the statement to the effect that forecasts are produced by rigs and not ACTUAL reports as is the case.
The end of the article is an inference that Pilots & Crews are under pressure to complete their task despite the WX or other factors that may affect safety. I do know from personal experience Bond and their Pilots do not operate like that nor do Bristow & CHC for that matter (and I'm sure other operators). To the outside world these kind of articles read like the industry is operating with a do it or be damned attitude and screw safety.
The silence speaks volumes, unfortunately the speaking is being done by the ill educated gossip monger's flogging bog paper to be.
Surely after this amount of time there must be a focus for the investigation, even if it's not a single factor. Or if there isn't a focus there can surely be some form of statement "The cause is unclear, All avenues are being investigated we hope to issue a further statement in x days".
Even now on Bonds glossy, image concious, website under their News section there is nothing. Not even a piece to say that there has been an incident but all persons are safe and well and it is being investigated etc. etc.
It really doesn't make the situation look professional. There can surely be some unspinned, unbull****ted, short, simplistic statement to be put out by now.
My drivel is over. Whatever **** happened out there, well done to all involved to bring this to a happy conclusion.......well, maybe not the hull underwriters happy conclusion
It's such a shame that the ship went under. Surely, considering it was so close to a platform, and the calm sea, someone in authority could at least have had the presence of mind to have it towed to the platform and lifted out of the sea with a crane. Or at least secured upright on the water by the crane until they'd been through their hazard analyse's.
Anyway, that aside. I wonder what the PF/PNF procedures are for arrival at the bottom of an instrument approach in poor weather. Does the PF hand over to the PNF before the minima if the PNF calls visual, and remain on instruments until landing. Thus the PNF for the approach becomes the PF for the landing. Or once visual is called, do both pilots look outside from that point until landing?
Anyway, that aside. I wonder what the PF/PNF procedures are for arrival at the bottom of an instrument approach in poor weather. Does the PF hand over to the PNF before the minima if the PNF calls visual, and remain on instruments until landing. Thus the PNF for the approach becomes the PF for the landing. Or once visual is called, do both pilots look outside from that point until landing?
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Normally Watching
Hi NW,
I agree with everything you have said!!!
SENIOR PILOT I am Happy to see this thread "pruned" back to provide sensible discussion of the real debate which is all I was interested in, but may I ask why the post about the Pilots family remains on this thread?
It is irrelevant, and makes us all look callous, uncaring, and unproffessional and it is no excuse to claim it is already in the press TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT.
Could I ask you to please review that post and consider its removal out of respect to the crewmember involved.
Thanking you.
I agree with everything you have said!!!
SENIOR PILOT I am Happy to see this thread "pruned" back to provide sensible discussion of the real debate which is all I was interested in, but may I ask why the post about the Pilots family remains on this thread?
It is irrelevant, and makes us all look callous, uncaring, and unproffessional and it is no excuse to claim it is already in the press TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT.
Could I ask you to please review that post and consider its removal out of respect to the crewmember involved.
Thanking you.
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It's such a shame that the ship went under.
Does the PF hand over to the PNF before the minima if the PNF calls visual, and remain on instruments until landing. Thus the PNF for the approach becomes the PF for the landing. Or once visual is called, do both pilots look outside from that point until landing?
Si