When do you start logging time?
Well, I have over 13,000 hrs and they have been logged from engine start to engine shutdown. If the blades keep spinning after shutdown, tough luck. But when those blades are being powered, somebody has to assume responsibility for them, and if that's me, I'm logging it.
Guys, remember that, unlike an airplane's propeller, the rotor blades of a helicopter are an airframe part. Thus, when the rotor blades are moving, the airframe is, it can be argued, moving. Thus(2), we can see the JAR justification for the way they log time, as opposed to in the U.S., where even the maintenance side of the FAA mistakes rotor blades for propellers.
However, some misinformed lawyer in the U.S. FAA decided that American pilots will only log flight time in accordance with how component time is logged (i.e. "skids off to skids on")... Except... Except for wheeled helicopters which can inexplicably log flight time (but not necessarily compoent time!) the way airplanes do... which doesn't make any sense.
Whilst getting your ratings, log your time whichever way your country's regs specify. After that, who cares? The regs don't cover it if you're not going for a certificate or rating.
However, some misinformed lawyer in the U.S. FAA decided that American pilots will only log flight time in accordance with how component time is logged (i.e. "skids off to skids on")... Except... Except for wheeled helicopters which can inexplicably log flight time (but not necessarily compoent time!) the way airplanes do... which doesn't make any sense.
Whilst getting your ratings, log your time whichever way your country's regs specify. After that, who cares? The regs don't cover it if you're not going for a certificate or rating.
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Section 35, Part 4 of CAP393, the UK ANO, which is about Personal Flying Logbooks:
My interpretation of the above quote is to log time only from when the aircraft begins to ground taxy, or when you raise the collective to lift off, in a skidded aircraft.
As an military trained pilot I always previously logged as per the military rules (same as per the UK ANO). Now, as a UK licence holder, I have always logged as per CAP393. Thirty years worth.
In my present job, and many others, operating from an airport, logging from engine start would add up to another ten minutes or more to many flights. That's possibly an extra ten to fifteen percent. I was always taught to fly for quality, not quantity.
As long as folks are honest in job interviews about this or to the CAA, (never mind about when shooting a line in the bar), and I'm sure you would be, should the question ever be asked, what the heck.
3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.
As an military trained pilot I always previously logged as per the military rules (same as per the UK ANO). Now, as a UK licence holder, I have always logged as per CAP393. Thirty years worth.
In my present job, and many others, operating from an airport, logging from engine start would add up to another ten minutes or more to many flights. That's possibly an extra ten to fifteen percent. I was always taught to fly for quality, not quantity.
As long as folks are honest in job interviews about this or to the CAA, (never mind about when shooting a line in the bar), and I'm sure you would be, should the question ever be asked, what the heck.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 2nd Jan 2010 at 12:47.
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No Bertram, you may not 
The ANO method is the correct way in the UK although it does leave open the possibility that there is a point when the machine is capable of flying and, because that time is not logged, no-one's in charge?
Cheers
Whirls
The ANO method is the correct way in the UK although it does leave open the possibility that there is a point when the machine is capable of flying and, because that time is not logged, no-one's in charge?
Cheers
Whirls
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I've been logging helicopter time since 1971, and have never logged anything other than time from hover to skids down, or 'collective up' time. Whether the rotors were turning or the engine(s) were running had nothing to do with it, just time in the air. I'm currently somewhere between 13,000 and 14,000 hours, and could probably have a few thousand more if I counted all the time I spent sitting on the ground (or on a platform) running waiting for pax, or all the two-minute cooldowns I've sat through. But I don't even know the exact total, and don't care. In any case, it's all in the air, none on the ground.
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Whirls, no, there is no possibility that no one's in charge. The person who signed the tech log, strapped in to the pilot's seat and pressed the start button is "in charge".
But until the aircraft moves for the purpose of flight, that person may not log flight time. Anyone who does otherwise is "sharp pencilling" their log book.
But until the aircraft moves for the purpose of flight, that person may not log flight time. Anyone who does otherwise is "sharp pencilling" their log book.
It's not sharp pencilling. It's logging time as 'Pilot in command' of an aircraft. You could log 'flight time' separately I suppose.
The big companies who need their pilots to 'fly' 800 hrs a year need that extra 10 minutes knocked off each start up. Can you imagine how many hours it saves say CHC/Bristow/Bond in ABZ per year in pilot hours? Bloody loads I bet. we can start up and easily sit for 10+ minutes before taxiing.
The big companies who need their pilots to 'fly' 800 hrs a year need that extra 10 minutes knocked off each start up. Can you imagine how many hours it saves say CHC/Bristow/Bond in ABZ per year in pilot hours? Bloody loads I bet. we can start up and easily sit for 10+ minutes before taxiing.
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Helimutt,
The CAA, via the ANO, are the judge and jury, as far as I'm concerned. I comply with what the regs say, not an individual or company opinion.
Working from an international airport, I also often wait for taxi clearance but have never logged ground running time before the aircraft's first movement.
The aircraft hours aren't affected by what the pilot logs in his personal flying logbook, in fact if ground taxying is concerned, it's less than the pilot's flight time anyway.
Edit:
P.S. I noticed your profile, which must be out of date because you state that you are presently flying as a co-pilot on the S-76; presumably assisting with the checklists and doing the r/t. How can you log "PIC" flight time when the aircraft is sitting on the ground and hasn't yet first moved for the purpose of flight?
Also, why does your company require you to log 800 hrs per year in your personal flying logbook?
The CAA, via the ANO, are the judge and jury, as far as I'm concerned. I comply with what the regs say, not an individual or company opinion.
Working from an international airport, I also often wait for taxi clearance but have never logged ground running time before the aircraft's first movement.
The aircraft hours aren't affected by what the pilot logs in his personal flying logbook, in fact if ground taxying is concerned, it's less than the pilot's flight time anyway.
Edit:
P.S. I noticed your profile, which must be out of date because you state that you are presently flying as a co-pilot on the S-76; presumably assisting with the checklists and doing the r/t. How can you log "PIC" flight time when the aircraft is sitting on the ground and hasn't yet first moved for the purpose of flight?
Also, why does your company require you to log 800 hrs per year in your personal flying logbook?
Last edited by ShyTorque; 2nd Jan 2010 at 23:02.
P.S. I noticed your profile, which must be out of date because you state that you are presently flying as a co-pilot on the S-76; presumably assisting with the checklists and doing the r/t. How can you log "PIC" flight time when the aircraft is sitting on the ground and hasn't yet first moved for the purpose of flight?
Also, why does your company require you to log 800 hrs per year in your personal flying logbook?
Also, why does your company require you to log 800 hrs per year in your personal flying logbook?
I realise recently people aren't getting up to 800hrs a year, but when they were busy, pilots would hit 800/900hrs (whatever the figure, i'd never do that many anyway) and then be unable to fly anymore. So it's beneficial to a comapny to have the pilots log less time.
How can you log "PIC" flight time when the aircraft is sitting on the ground and hasn't yet first moved for the purpose of flight?
Did I say I personally logged PIC time? No, but then you probably didn't mean that. I'll say it again, imagine you've just taken your shiny new police helicopter out of the hangar, started it up, and then say a nicy shiny fire truck or fuel bowser is too close and as he moves off, he clips the helicopter. As far as your concerned, there is no PIC at that time? Who would sort out the accident report and what would they be called in that paperwork? 'Person sat on their backside who happened to be at the controls at the time?'
It makes me laugh when the uninformed think a co-pilot just does RT and helps with checklists. Typical single pilot mentality.
I'm lucky enough to fly for a company who is moving away from that terminology, and we have handling Pilot and non handling pilot. PF or PNF. The guys I fly with are total professionals, and let me fly as much as they do. I bet a few of them even let me fly more than themselves when we're rostered to fly together.
Here's another one for you then Shyte, at the end of the day's flying, the co-pilots would climb out of the a/c to go do the paperwork etc, and the Commander would taxi the a/c back around to the hangar. Guess what, the time was still being logged by the co-pilots! Result! Not only that, if one or the other got out whilst re-fueling between sectors, the time would still be logged while you're making coffee/tea.
The aircraft hours aren't affected by what the pilot logs in his personal flying logbook, in fact if ground taxying is concerned, it's less than the pilot's flight time anyway
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Our company,
(ADA) stipulate rotor start to rotor stop, after each flight.
BHL once tried mandating Davtron time for both pilot hours and Tech Log entry with the meter set to activate/de-activate at around 29-30% torque on the 212's in Nigeria.
After a couple of months it was found the difference to "normal" flight logging was around 32-34% and questions were then asked more for maintenance reasons than log-book reasons (most didn't care about being 30% short of log book hours, except for the less experienced local pilots).
But there was a fair amount of alarm due to the aircraft possibly overflying important maintenance requirements/servicing by the same amount.
SS.
(ADA) stipulate rotor start to rotor stop, after each flight.
BHL once tried mandating Davtron time for both pilot hours and Tech Log entry with the meter set to activate/de-activate at around 29-30% torque on the 212's in Nigeria.
After a couple of months it was found the difference to "normal" flight logging was around 32-34% and questions were then asked more for maintenance reasons than log-book reasons (most didn't care about being 30% short of log book hours, except for the less experienced local pilots).
But there was a fair amount of alarm due to the aircraft possibly overflying important maintenance requirements/servicing by the same amount.
SS.
It does make you wonder about a/c hours, when the tech log total time says 13,000hrs and only flight time is logged. None sat waiting. Non whilst pax embark/disembark. None from engine start until taxi. Say 10 mins a day, a/c sometimes over 15yrs old. Do the math.
I believe F.Robinson was shocked when he heard that some schools deduct 0.1hrs off the totals for start up and shut down on the R22's.
I believe F.Robinson was shocked when he heard that some schools deduct 0.1hrs off the totals for start up and shut down on the R22's.
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This a fun debate and interesting to see where it is going.
In the helicopter I have mostly flown, there is a Hobbs meter that starts counting when the MGB pressure rises above a certain figure. Thats the time I use for my private logging of flight time. The helicopters technical time is also based on that meter and it is up to me as the pilot to record accurate technical time in the tech log by subtracting the time on ground while rotors are turning and stuff is beeing loaded/offloaded.
It is up to the pilot to decide if he likes to use the JAR definition to its limits and add a little extra for the time while rotors turn after shut down? Then he would base his extra minutes on the Hobbs meter reading.
By law, I am required to be at the controls during the time when rotors are turning for intention of flight and that has always been logged as flight time here in Iceland, and according to the Icelandic regs, which are based on the JAR's, it should be done so.
I guess it really does not matter in the long run if you log a few minutes more or less for every flight as long as there is no magnificent creative writing included.
All I can say about my logbook is that the hours in it are honestly logged and I can back it all up if someone decides to ask.
In my mind this is pretty simple, at least according to the Icelandic regs.
You log your flight time while rotors are turning for the intention of flight,
you log tech time between skids on.
In the helicopter I have mostly flown, there is a Hobbs meter that starts counting when the MGB pressure rises above a certain figure. Thats the time I use for my private logging of flight time. The helicopters technical time is also based on that meter and it is up to me as the pilot to record accurate technical time in the tech log by subtracting the time on ground while rotors are turning and stuff is beeing loaded/offloaded.
It is up to the pilot to decide if he likes to use the JAR definition to its limits and add a little extra for the time while rotors turn after shut down? Then he would base his extra minutes on the Hobbs meter reading.
By law, I am required to be at the controls during the time when rotors are turning for intention of flight and that has always been logged as flight time here in Iceland, and according to the Icelandic regs, which are based on the JAR's, it should be done so.
I guess it really does not matter in the long run if you log a few minutes more or less for every flight as long as there is no magnificent creative writing included.
All I can say about my logbook is that the hours in it are honestly logged and I can back it all up if someone decides to ask.
In my mind this is pretty simple, at least according to the Icelandic regs.
You log your flight time while rotors are turning for the intention of flight,
you log tech time between skids on.
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Helimutt,
I don’t understand your example, quote: “your” (= mine?) shiny police helicopter being involved in an incident. What does police aviation have to do with this discussion?
If you don’t understand about how running time relates to maintenance issues in your particular job, you might find it beneficial to speak to your maintenance organisation. Helicopter fatigue is a complex subject, but the initial "model" included in the manufacturer's design life does allow for some ground running, as it also does for transition/climb, cruise, low speed ops, landing cycles etc. Sometimes the aircraft is used under a very different regime to the "standard" and if so, a modified maintenance program may be implemented.
On the S-76s I flew for ten years or so, (A++, B, C and C+, multi-crew, btw), for two different organisations, one in UK and one overseas, for maintenance purposes, we logged airborne times to the minute from the FMS via the "w.o.w." switch, for each sector, as requested by the maintenance organisations. The type I fly now (multi crew, btw) is the same, in fact the figures are also recorded by the aircraft's data collection system. We interrogate the system after landing to obtain the hours and minutes flown.
For the pilots personal logbooks, on top of the wow figures, we added on taxy time (when the aircraft first moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight) if appropriate. Any subsequent rotors running on the ground between sectors was counted by the pilots because that does fall within the ANO definition of flight time for the purposes of a pilot's personal logbook.
It's certainly an interesting discussion. It appears that in UK we have pilots claiming different flight times under two different systems. When it comes to logging flying hours for licence upgrades, e.g. CPL to ATPL, the ones claiming for time outside of the ANO definition have an obvious advantage in this respect. I intend to request further clarification from the CAA.
My username is ShyTorque, btw.
P.S. From your patronising comments, you obviously assume I have only ever operated single pilot and am therefore completely uninformed about multi-crew ops. You began a thread congratulating Flingingwings on his well-deserved promotion to captain, in quite short order. Please note his comment in post #8.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/325...and-hours.html
I don’t understand your example, quote: “your” (= mine?) shiny police helicopter being involved in an incident. What does police aviation have to do with this discussion?
If you don’t understand about how running time relates to maintenance issues in your particular job, you might find it beneficial to speak to your maintenance organisation. Helicopter fatigue is a complex subject, but the initial "model" included in the manufacturer's design life does allow for some ground running, as it also does for transition/climb, cruise, low speed ops, landing cycles etc. Sometimes the aircraft is used under a very different regime to the "standard" and if so, a modified maintenance program may be implemented.
On the S-76s I flew for ten years or so, (A++, B, C and C+, multi-crew, btw), for two different organisations, one in UK and one overseas, for maintenance purposes, we logged airborne times to the minute from the FMS via the "w.o.w." switch, for each sector, as requested by the maintenance organisations. The type I fly now (multi crew, btw) is the same, in fact the figures are also recorded by the aircraft's data collection system. We interrogate the system after landing to obtain the hours and minutes flown.
For the pilots personal logbooks, on top of the wow figures, we added on taxy time (when the aircraft first moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight) if appropriate. Any subsequent rotors running on the ground between sectors was counted by the pilots because that does fall within the ANO definition of flight time for the purposes of a pilot's personal logbook.
It's certainly an interesting discussion. It appears that in UK we have pilots claiming different flight times under two different systems. When it comes to logging flying hours for licence upgrades, e.g. CPL to ATPL, the ones claiming for time outside of the ANO definition have an obvious advantage in this respect. I intend to request further clarification from the CAA.
My username is ShyTorque, btw.
P.S. From your patronising comments, you obviously assume I have only ever operated single pilot and am therefore completely uninformed about multi-crew ops. You began a thread congratulating Flingingwings on his well-deserved promotion to captain, in quite short order. Please note his comment in post #8.
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/325...and-hours.html
Any subsequent rotors running on the ground between sectors was counted by the pilots because that does fall within the ANO definition of flight time for the purposes of a pilot's personal logbook.
Oh dear. ShyTorque, first off, if you have taken the time to read that particular post, then you have obviously had a quick scan through some of my other posts too, in which case you'll see I tend to use PPRuNe to amuse myself and you'll possibly see I have a very poor sense of humour. I wasn't trying to be patronising. 
Maybe just acting childish again possibly, and for that, I apologise.
Yes, I know fine well who you are, and know what/who you fly for. The 'police' quote was meant as an example. I could have used AA or whatever.
The logging of hours is always going to be a subject of debate until the CAA decide to just make it quite clear, plain and simple.
I saw one of our helicipters fly overhead today so decided to log a nice big fat 0.1 for that!
Maybe just acting childish again possibly, and for that, I apologise.Yes, I know fine well who you are, and know what/who you fly for. The 'police' quote was meant as an example. I could have used AA or whatever.
The logging of hours is always going to be a subject of debate until the CAA decide to just make it quite clear, plain and simple.
I saw one of our helicipters fly overhead today so decided to log a nice big fat 0.1 for that!
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Helimutt, I didn't actually notice any sign of a sense of humour... 
Regarding PIC before "moving under it's own power"; you obviously didn't bother to read my earlier post at the top of the same page, (#81) in reply to Whirls' comment on the very same issue.
Responsibility and logged flight hours are separate issues in this respect. Not my rules or opinion, but those of the CAA. And of course, of your company chief pilot (and mine, that's me though) and the aircraft insurance company.
Thanks for your input to the discussion; it's been enlightening. If I'm in a position to recruit another co-pilot (recruited two in the last year or so), possibly to help them "do a Flingingwings", I'll be perusing applicant's logbooks very carefully and asking deep and meaningful questions at hours logged by ex-offshore co-pilots, especially ones from Humberside with a share in a light aircraft.
That's just my sense of humour, coming out there, btw.
I'll say it again, imagine you've just taken your shiny new police helicopter out of the hangar, started it up, and then say a nicy shiny fire truck or fuel bowser is too close and as he moves off, he clips the helicopter. As far as your concerned, there is no PIC at that time? Who would sort out the accident report and what would they be called in that paperwork? 'Person sat on their backside who happened to be at the controls at the time?'
Responsibility and logged flight hours are separate issues in this respect. Not my rules or opinion, but those of the CAA. And of course, of your company chief pilot (and mine, that's me though) and the aircraft insurance company.
Thanks for your input to the discussion; it's been enlightening. If I'm in a position to recruit another co-pilot (recruited two in the last year or so), possibly to help them "do a Flingingwings", I'll be perusing applicant's logbooks very carefully and asking deep and meaningful questions at hours logged by ex-offshore co-pilots, especially ones from Humberside with a share in a light aircraft.
That's just my sense of humour, coming out there, btw.
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The logging of hours is always going to be a subject of debate until the CAA decide to just make it quite clear, plain and simple.
The Air Navigation Order is the law in the UK and it states (words to the effect); move under its own power for purpose of flight to rotor stop.
LASORS is an "interpretation" of JARS and is not law. In fact, the JARS are not law.
Whilst the ANO definition may not be sensible and there may be flaws in the logic and inconsistencies with other JAA states, it is still the law. And we all know what the law is?
Cheers
Whirls
Wishing that maybe she'd just kept her gob shut
W
Working from an international airport, I also often wait for taxi clearance but have never logged ground running time before the aircraft's first movement.
I didn't actually notice any sign of a sense of humour...
I did say it was poor.
If I'm in a position to recruit another co-pilot (recruited two in the last year or so), possibly to help them "do a Flingingwings", I'll be perusing applicant's logbooks very carefully and asking deep and meaningful questions at hours logged by ex-offshore co-pilots, especially ones from Humberside with a share in a light aircraft.
You got to love a sense of humour!
Cheers P, at least I had a laugh tonight.
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And as for 13,000 hour co-pilots..... I'm laughing about that one, too.
And the ones talking about logging the engine's Hobbs meter time on Robbos as flight time. If the school makes you log it, it's to the detriment of your "real" hands on, flying hour - and the student pays.
Another co-pilot with a light aircraft that I brought along a bit in 2008 on a new type has done quite well for himself. He's just sent me his new business card. He's now the Head of Flight Ops, Bristows... 
And the ones talking about logging the engine's Hobbs meter time on Robbos as flight time. If the school makes you log it, it's to the detriment of your "real" hands on, flying hour - and the student pays.
Well if they have a share in a light aircraft, just think of all the PIC time they'll have logged, and not had to put up with the inane banter of some old know-it-all crusty Captain across the cockpit!