When do you start logging time?
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And how to log landing in off airport places?
Well and someone knows what to write to logbook instead of airport ICAO code, if I land in my farm o some other off-airport site?
Well if I look at the CAA website, that's what's written, so where does it say it's different in UK? And why?
ILblog, just write the name of the place you land. Doesn't need to be an ICAO code surely??
ILblog, just write the name of the place you land. Doesn't need to be an ICAO code surely??
Hovering AND talking
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I think this has been discussed before and that there is a discrepancy between the ANO and JAR-FCL2. I do take off to rotor stop.
As for location of take-off and landing, I just write the place.
Cheers
Whirls
As for location of take-off and landing, I just write the place.
Cheers
Whirls
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the discrepancy as i understand it is between the ANO and ICAO,
ICAO - Rotor start till Rotor Stop
ANO - first moves under own power until rotor stop.
for my company FTL i used ANO, but in my logbook I have always written it the ICAO way, if you are a low timer it can make quite a difference for you getting minimum hours for licensing purposes.
regards
CF
ICAO - Rotor start till Rotor Stop
ANO - first moves under own power until rotor stop.
for my company FTL i used ANO, but in my logbook I have always written it the ICAO way, if you are a low timer it can make quite a difference for you getting minimum hours for licensing purposes.
regards
CF
Last edited by Camp Freddie; 28th Dec 2009 at 20:44.
I generally use the weight on wheels airborne time (actual airborne time in minutes) logged by the aircraft, rounded up appropriately if I've had to ground taxi before departure.
I've never used from rotor start - I reckon I could add a few hundred hours to my logbook if I had.
The UK ANO is backed up by UK law, ICAO rules aren't necessarily so.
I've never used from rotor start - I reckon I could add a few hundred hours to my logbook if I had.
The UK ANO is backed up by UK law, ICAO rules aren't necessarily so.
For those in the US...the rules are different---one can only log that time the aircraft moves under its own power till it stops, (mx hobbs NOT blade time). For those who are trying to obtain ratings in the US, if you use rotor start to stop, you will have hours deducted from your total time.
Here is a letter from the FAA Chief Council Office:
Here is a letter from the FAA Chief Council Office:
“U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
APR 27 2007
(address omitted)
Dear Mr. (omitted),
This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.
Your three questions are:
1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?
2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?
3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?
The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.
It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.
This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”
Federal Aviation Administration
APR 27 2007
(address omitted)
Dear Mr. (omitted),
This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.
Your three questions are:
1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?
2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?
3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?
The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.
It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.
This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”
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This is one of the few things in the JAR's that are pretty simple.
According to JAR, you can log as flight time, the time from when the helicopter moves under its own power for the intention of flight until it comes to rest at the end of the flight and its rotors have stopped.
Not excactly rotors running time since the machine can sit for a prolonged time before flight is commenced, say during pre-flight checks. Usually, the helicopter is not run for long after the flight.
During aerial work where you land and take off all the time, I think it is not wise to have the pilot to calcluate the ground time off his flight time. The difference between technical time (skids on time) and flight time can be some and you as a pilot log the flight time according to the relevant regulations while the helicopters technical tie is logged according to different regs., not to be confused.
The pilot is (at least he is expected to be) at the controls all the time and the helicopter is handled as in "flying" conditions while rotors are running. Thats what the JAR's expect.
According to JAR, you can log as flight time, the time from when the helicopter moves under its own power for the intention of flight until it comes to rest at the end of the flight and its rotors have stopped.
Not excactly rotors running time since the machine can sit for a prolonged time before flight is commenced, say during pre-flight checks. Usually, the helicopter is not run for long after the flight.
During aerial work where you land and take off all the time, I think it is not wise to have the pilot to calcluate the ground time off his flight time. The difference between technical time (skids on time) and flight time can be some and you as a pilot log the flight time according to the relevant regulations while the helicopters technical tie is logged according to different regs., not to be confused.
The pilot is (at least he is expected to be) at the controls all the time and the helicopter is handled as in "flying" conditions while rotors are running. Thats what the JAR's expect.
This is one of the few things in the JAR's that are pretty simple.
According to JAR, you can log as flight time, the time from when the helicopter moves under its own power for the intention of flight until it comes to rest at the end of the flight and its rotors have stopped.
According to JAR, you can log as flight time, the time from when the helicopter moves under its own power for the intention of flight until it comes to rest at the end of the flight and its rotors have stopped.
I disagree. Look up JAR-FCL 2.001 and look up Flight Time Recording for helicopters and planes. Unless of course you can direct me to where it states what you have written?
Hovering AND talking
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you can log as flight time, the time from when the helicopter moves under its own power for the intention of flight until it comes to rest at the end of the flight and its rotors have stopped.
Cheers
Whirls
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helimutt
I stand corrected.
I wrote my post out of my apparently not so good memory. Checklists were made for people like me.
According to FCL 2.001 and the Icelandic regulations on flight crew licensing (based on JAR-FCL 2 Amd. 6), this is exactly as you state, i.e. Rotors turning time.
"Flight time:
The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."
So how does one log the rotors turning time if the helicopter is wheeled and you only do some taxying during maintenance and such? Or when only doing ground runs? No flight in there is it?
Sorry for the confusion people.
I stand corrected.
I wrote my post out of my apparently not so good memory. Checklists were made for people like me.
According to FCL 2.001 and the Icelandic regulations on flight crew licensing (based on JAR-FCL 2 Amd. 6), this is exactly as you state, i.e. Rotors turning time.
"Flight time:
The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."
So how does one log the rotors turning time if the helicopter is wheeled and you only do some taxying during maintenance and such? Or when only doing ground runs? No flight in there is it?
Sorry for the confusion people.
Hovering AND talking
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surely it would be the JAR definition that I should be working to for my own personal log book?
Cheers
Whirls
For the UK I guess its still not changed from when the CAA issued this back in 2003.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1_2003_H.pdf
ANO definition stands in their eyes (if the ANO applies to you).
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1_2003_H.pdf
ANO definition stands in their eyes (if the ANO applies to you).
Glad that clears that up then, so if anything were to happen (ie go wrong) just after starting up(rotors turning) but we haven't yet moved, then no-one can be blamed for it as there is no Pilot In Command. Not if the time can't be logged somehow??????
Any idea when the CAA plan to use the JAR regs over the ANO as i'm pretty sure we all hold JAR licences now! UK CAA
!!
Any idea when the CAA plan to use the JAR regs over the ANO as i'm pretty sure we all hold JAR licences now! UK CAA
!!
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The UK CAA will never use JAR-FCL over the ANO - The 'R' stands for Requirements, not Regulations and the UK, like all other member states, will continue to meet those requirements that it chooses to by means of amendments to its national legislation (the ANO). Once EASA finally gets itself sorted out and completes the process of introducing Parts FCL, OR and AR into EU law, the ANO will become defunct in those areas. Only then will you see what regulatory incompetence really means!
This whole thread is focussed on the words "Moves under its own power."
There isn't a helicopter that I have flown that DOESN'T move as soon as the engine starts - various shakes, rattles and rolls as blades spin up and so on.
It is moving. Up and down, side to side. Log it.
There isn't a helicopter that I have flown that DOESN'T move as soon as the engine starts - various shakes, rattles and rolls as blades spin up and so on.
It is moving. Up and down, side to side. Log it.
Avoid imitations
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Damned Biro pilots.... 
I'm sure there must be a miniscule airframe twitch when the battery is turned on and the little gyro in the standby horizon starts up; why not log that time, too?
I'm sure there must be a miniscule airframe twitch when the battery is turned on and the little gyro in the standby horizon starts up; why not log that time, too?
