SARH to go
Tonka Toy - I'm not sure why any of my comments should make you nervous and I think you should understand helicopter NVG ops and how we use them and FLIR. On an overwater night search for a person, we would use the FLIR on autoscan and be looking out of the window using NVG - the FLIR would only be effective if the moisture content of the air is low and there is a good thermal contrast.
NVG allow almost daytime flexibility in manoeuvring the aircraft, not something that can be done looking at a FLIR screen and allow you to search visually just as you would by day (although everything is in shades of green). You certainly cannot fly night overland at low level using a FLIR tv screen and at the moment no UK SAR helos have a heads up FLIR display - therefore NVG is the answer. The modern NVG tubes are very good but the quality of the NVG picture varies with light levels and weather - NVG is a piece of p*ss on a nice night but very demanding when the conditions are not so benign. Lots of training is the answer because, just like instrument flying, NVG flying is a perishable skill. When and if the civsar crews are allowed to use goggles they will have a large training burden to add to what they already do - we do almost as much night flying as we do day flying.
NVG allow almost daytime flexibility in manoeuvring the aircraft, not something that can be done looking at a FLIR screen and allow you to search visually just as you would by day (although everything is in shades of green). You certainly cannot fly night overland at low level using a FLIR tv screen and at the moment no UK SAR helos have a heads up FLIR display - therefore NVG is the answer. The modern NVG tubes are very good but the quality of the NVG picture varies with light levels and weather - NVG is a piece of p*ss on a nice night but very demanding when the conditions are not so benign. Lots of training is the answer because, just like instrument flying, NVG flying is a perishable skill. When and if the civsar crews are allowed to use goggles they will have a large training burden to add to what they already do - we do almost as much night flying as we do day flying.
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Thankyou Crab,
I've clearly not had the exposure to moisture content you have had in the NVG environment. Wouldn't mind an up to date look though from your perspective. Do you think the Watti or Lossie flts might allow a tag along for a look see one night?
I would say that it is incredibly hard to provide a quality service in the commercial environment. A bidder cuts his margins to the bone to win a contract, he therefore does not wish bright ideas or kit development to eat into that margin of profit. That management does not care how you do the job and has little understanding of what is involved, just don't touch his/her margin. I don't think you will enjoy a civil SAR set up, where even at the basic level, you pay for much out of your own pocket or take your chances!
I've clearly not had the exposure to moisture content you have had in the NVG environment. Wouldn't mind an up to date look though from your perspective. Do you think the Watti or Lossie flts might allow a tag along for a look see one night?
I would say that it is incredibly hard to provide a quality service in the commercial environment. A bidder cuts his margins to the bone to win a contract, he therefore does not wish bright ideas or kit development to eat into that margin of profit. That management does not care how you do the job and has little understanding of what is involved, just don't touch his/her margin. I don't think you will enjoy a civil SAR set up, where even at the basic level, you pay for much out of your own pocket or take your chances!
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Vie,
I suggest then that the content of the training is still going to boil down to the bottom line, -money! Something budget wise that the military don't have too much of a worry about. Where as in a civil environment we see more of Oliver and his begging bowl.
I think over the next few years in a civil SAR environment, we will see more efforts to cut cost by the use of fixed wing assetts to do the donkey work, the searching, and then bring in rotary assetts when required. 'Releaving' a bit more of the budget for rotary to train. Puts the onus on fixed wing but would only work if fixed wing is properly equipped, which it isn't at the moment!
I suggest then that the content of the training is still going to boil down to the bottom line, -money! Something budget wise that the military don't have too much of a worry about. Where as in a civil environment we see more of Oliver and his begging bowl.
I think over the next few years in a civil SAR environment, we will see more efforts to cut cost by the use of fixed wing assetts to do the donkey work, the searching, and then bring in rotary assetts when required. 'Releaving' a bit more of the budget for rotary to train. Puts the onus on fixed wing but would only work if fixed wing is properly equipped, which it isn't at the moment!
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Tonka,
The point you make with regard to training is the one that Crab has been making for years and one that results in personal abuse, but little construtive comment, every time. We all know that the civilian crews could do everything the military crews do if they were allocated the same number of training hours and could operate to the same limits.
CD
The point you make with regard to training is the one that Crab has been making for years and one that results in personal abuse, but little construtive comment, every time. We all know that the civilian crews could do everything the military crews do if they were allocated the same number of training hours and could operate to the same limits.
CD
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Announcement
Just thought I'd have a look and see if the SARH contract or contract winners had been announced? Wasn't it meant to have happened last month? Any news anybody?
Just to add my 2pence worth to the preceding discussion, I think we should have an egg and spoon race between a nominated pilot from RAF SAR, Navy SAR and civillian SAR. Whoever wins will decide once and for all, who is the best SAR operator of them all! Egg and spoon requires the participant to demonstrate high levels of hand eye coordination under high levels of stress, physical fitness and spoon control.
Hompy
Just to add my 2pence worth to the preceding discussion, I think we should have an egg and spoon race between a nominated pilot from RAF SAR, Navy SAR and civillian SAR. Whoever wins will decide once and for all, who is the best SAR operator of them all! Egg and spoon requires the participant to demonstrate high levels of hand eye coordination under high levels of stress, physical fitness and spoon control.
Hompy
Ah but Hompy, if the RAF won the others would say it was because we had done too much training for it, the RN would claim a moral victory because it is only a secondary role for them as they are resting from proper 'front-line' egg and spoon races and the civilians would claim victory because they did it cheapest but with a really shiny new spoon
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Royal National Heliboat Service
As a Lakenheath brother in SAR, I can see the regional success of a charitable SAR service doing very well along the Southcoast whereby affluent patrons could get their names emblazoned on the nose of a shiny SAR helo. But dovetailing charity support into a UK MoD PFI would be a bit daunting don't you think? 
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The big issue is that UKSAR is a NATIONAL resource.
So, when the Southern flights are all doing (eg) Gloucester floods, there is an Officer at Kinloss who has both the responsibility and the authority to redeploy assets so as to maintain the best coverage in the event of another emergency.
UK EMS helos are all charity funded, and are all tied to localities. With the greatest respect to the work they do, they are organisationally like the Royal Flying Corps in 1916. The advantages of air power - speed, flexibility, mobility, are being sacrificed on command and control boundaries.
The RAF SAR Force responds, as best as it can given the shoddy state of its machines, to any emergency anywhere in the UK regardless of conditions (other than temperature beow -7 in visibility below 1k)
EMS turn up within county boundaries. UKSAR will do its best wherever the incident happens to lie.
Is that not what we should expect from Government services?- regardless of the name on the side of the machine?
Sven
So, when the Southern flights are all doing (eg) Gloucester floods, there is an Officer at Kinloss who has both the responsibility and the authority to redeploy assets so as to maintain the best coverage in the event of another emergency.
UK EMS helos are all charity funded, and are all tied to localities. With the greatest respect to the work they do, they are organisationally like the Royal Flying Corps in 1916. The advantages of air power - speed, flexibility, mobility, are being sacrificed on command and control boundaries.
The RAF SAR Force responds, as best as it can given the shoddy state of its machines, to any emergency anywhere in the UK regardless of conditions (other than temperature beow -7 in visibility below 1k)
EMS turn up within county boundaries. UKSAR will do its best wherever the incident happens to lie.
Is that not what we should expect from Government services?- regardless of the name on the side of the machine?
Sven
Last edited by Sven Sixtoo; 24th Feb 2009 at 21:19.
UK EMS helos .............are all tied to localities
EMS turn up within county boundaries
Also during 7/7 incident we were put on standby (by ambulance control, following their national emergency plan) to move "down to East Anglia to cover their area if they are needed in London"
Last edited by Bertie Thruster; 21st Feb 2009 at 08:47.
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Tonka Toy,
Wasn't me, but was a couple of good friends that did it. Pretty challenging mission, tough winds and seas. Well planned and risk mitigated. Tanking is a blessing and a curse. When you exceed the PoNR and you have to tank to RTB in turbulence, it's a little nerve-wracking when the hose and drogue are bouncing around while your fuel gauge continues to drop. It's also a curse in that you can't get out of the seat in a 60 to stretch your legs or go to the non-existent crew relief tube.
I'm curious how you guys think it'll work with mixes of civil and military crews. How will the civvies get certified to the weather minimums that the military guys are used to? How are the MCA (CHC) guys doing it now? Waivers? Some interesting crew training dynamics could develop there but as previously mentioned, there's good techniques to be shared/learned by all.
Cheers and keep up the good fight for SAR-H.
Wasn't me, but was a couple of good friends that did it. Pretty challenging mission, tough winds and seas. Well planned and risk mitigated. Tanking is a blessing and a curse. When you exceed the PoNR and you have to tank to RTB in turbulence, it's a little nerve-wracking when the hose and drogue are bouncing around while your fuel gauge continues to drop. It's also a curse in that you can't get out of the seat in a 60 to stretch your legs or go to the non-existent crew relief tube.
I'm curious how you guys think it'll work with mixes of civil and military crews. How will the civvies get certified to the weather minimums that the military guys are used to? How are the MCA (CHC) guys doing it now? Waivers? Some interesting crew training dynamics could develop there but as previously mentioned, there's good techniques to be shared/learned by all.
Cheers and keep up the good fight for SAR-H.
PAVEHAWK - it was a good job well done without doubt but, out of interest, how many assets were required to get perform the rescue? I only ask to highlight the fact that such a capability only exists within the Military (even if it isn't ours).
I am led to believe that SARH will be military registered (civilian) aircraft to allow military rules and regulations to be used (neatly sidestepping civil regulation issues with NVG). Anyone from Soteria or Air Knight care to comment as this is the message we are getting from the IPT?
I am led to believe that SARH will be military registered (civilian) aircraft to allow military rules and regulations to be used (neatly sidestepping civil regulation issues with NVG). Anyone from Soteria or Air Knight care to comment as this is the message we are getting from the IPT?
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Sven Sixtoo-None of the Air Ambulances I know have been constrained by county boundaries, in fact they are generally keen to expand their exposure and hence revenue gathering potential. They are tasked by Ambulance control, not by the charity, by and large. So they could be brought in to play in any National Emergency as seen fit by Ambulance Control. Yes it is something that could be tidied up but if the Government gets involved costs will spiral, serviceability will collapse and we will have more civil servants than front line staff.
As for a charity funded SAR Helicopter, ask the RNLI about that.
Can not comment on Civilian/Military registration as I don’t know. Would suggest that getting dispensation for Civilians to fly to Military rules would be harder to get than an NVG clearance from the CAA, as by law we have to comply with CAA rules. Also you have to look at the engineering side, another can of worms. Not aware of any precedence in the UK for Civilians Flying Military with this complexity, in this country. But there are several units that have G registered aircraft flown by Milatary/Civilian crews. Bristows have a proven track record(20 years SAR) with getting things done with the CAA, get them to right the book and present it to the CAA. I am sure the relevant management teams will have thought this through!!!!!!!!!!!! And presented a solution to the authorities!!!!!!!!!!
As for a charity funded SAR Helicopter, ask the RNLI about that.
Can not comment on Civilian/Military registration as I don’t know. Would suggest that getting dispensation for Civilians to fly to Military rules would be harder to get than an NVG clearance from the CAA, as by law we have to comply with CAA rules. Also you have to look at the engineering side, another can of worms. Not aware of any precedence in the UK for Civilians Flying Military with this complexity, in this country. But there are several units that have G registered aircraft flown by Milatary/Civilian crews. Bristows have a proven track record(20 years SAR) with getting things done with the CAA, get them to right the book and present it to the CAA. I am sure the relevant management teams will have thought this through!!!!!!!!!!!! And presented a solution to the authorities!!!!!!!!!!
Rottweiler - look no further than the Defence Helicopter Flying School at Shawbury to see civilians (no licence required) flying contractor owned, military registered (dual in fact I think) and operated aircraft to military rules and regs, including NVG.
The problem with the Air Ambulance setup is that it is parochial by nature and, whilst limited cross-border ops are not unusual, I don't believe a National response is possible under the present command and control structure (local assets for local people)
The problem with the Air Ambulance setup is that it is parochial by nature and, whilst limited cross-border ops are not unusual, I don't believe a National response is possible under the present command and control structure (local assets for local people
)