Guimbal Cabri G2
Gday HeliHenri.....tis aboot da coins, nuffin else. 
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Hoy there Flying Binghi......in the loooong run the G2 will be tons cheaper
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Hoy there Flying Binghi......in the loooong run the G2 will be tons cheaper
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Can I ask a question about this “In the long run they are way cheaper” claim?
How are people determining this? Surely if this were genuinely anything like the case, there would never be a flying school in the world using an R22 again? Flight instruction in a Cabri is considerably costlier than in an R22 and so the profit margins for the schools must be great! I just cannot see where they come out so much cheaper.
How are people determining this? Surely if this were genuinely anything like the case, there would never be a flying school in the world using an R22 again? Flight instruction in a Cabri is considerably costlier than in an R22 and so the profit margins for the schools must be great! I just cannot see where they come out so much cheaper.
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That's all well and good, but then why are the US schools charging $250/hr for R22 rental, $450/hr for an R44, and $450/hr for a G2?
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Are you sure about that? I only know of two schools here that have them, and they don't have the price on their website?
There is a good chance the schools own or lease back the R22's and so don't really pay for the capital cost.
The G2 is expensive to buy and so if they are mortgaged, lets say 80% LTV, on a (350K EURO) $420K machine then the repayments on a mortgage are $47K per year based on 5% over 10 years. If the machine flies 250hr/year then that's $188/hr in additional cost over the R22.
Purchase price is an important parameter, even for hard working machines.
I personally think the G2 is not terribly attractive as a private owner machine, as its too slow and can't carry enough. Therefore, there will be very few wealthy owners buying them for personal use and then leasing back to schools to offset fixed costs.
The G2 is expensive to buy and so if they are mortgaged, lets say 80% LTV, on a (350K EURO) $420K machine then the repayments on a mortgage are $47K per year based on 5% over 10 years. If the machine flies 250hr/year then that's $188/hr in additional cost over the R22.
Purchase price is an important parameter, even for hard working machines.
I personally think the G2 is not terribly attractive as a private owner machine, as its too slow and can't carry enough. Therefore, there will be very few wealthy owners buying them for personal use and then leasing back to schools to offset fixed costs.
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I’m aware of the cost of overhaul kits. But Cabri’s still need engine overhauls and presumably still have parts that wear out, they just don’t need replacing routinely every 2200 hours or 12 years.
I agree with you all that initial purchase cost is an important part of the overall costs. This is my point, and is why I simply don’t believe that overall the Cabri is any cheaper than the R22 despite the many claims.
I agree with you all that initial purchase cost is an important part of the overall costs. This is my point, and is why I simply don’t believe that overall the Cabri is any cheaper than the R22 despite the many claims.
Last edited by GS-Alpha; 1st Dec 2017 at 17:50.
1/ US pilots are very very stupids to pay the same price to fly a G2 or a R44 with 4 seats and much more powerfull.
2/ If 1 doesn't apply, some US operators are very very stupids tu buy a model so expensive to run that no pilot fly it.
So 1 or 2 ?
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Last edited by HeliHenri; 1st Dec 2017 at 18:22.
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For many years Enstrom has had a helicopter that is safe and easy to fly,...built like a tank was my impression when I flew it! So why did it never drop the R22 from its place at the top of the training list? One word,...
Price!
As far as the R22 overhaul goes, I have never seen an R22 come back to a school when it has reached its overhaul time. I'm guessing schools just trade them in for another one instead?
Price!
As far as the R22 overhaul goes, I have never seen an R22 come back to a school when it has reached its overhaul time. I'm guessing schools just trade them in for another one instead?
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Yes, they are higher but not that much
Texas Rotorwing Academy : G2 350$ solo rental (no R22 or R44 in the fleet)
Revolution Aviation : flight training R22 305$ / G2 390$ 5VFR/IFR) / R44 570$
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Yes, they are higher but not that much
Texas Rotorwing Academy : G2 350$ solo rental (no R22 or R44 in the fleet)
Revolution Aviation : flight training R22 305$ / G2 390$ 5VFR/IFR) / R44 570$
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Last edited by HeliHenri; 1st Dec 2017 at 18:23.
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My local school in the UK charge £438 plus an £18 landing fee.
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https://flymidwest.com/resources/hourly-rates/
They list $450/hr.
Apparently that's high. Searching a little more I'm finding prices more like $380/hr. Still significantly more than an R22. Example:
http://www.eatsleepfly.com/helicopte...ining-pricing/
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Not universally true. The school where I learn rebuilds them. Of course they are also a Robinson dealer and service center, which may put them in a special category.
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Wow, $570 for an R44! I've never paid that much to fly one of those, and with around 100 hours in them, I can assure you that the R44 ain't worth that much green! Plus, what student can afford $570/hr,...!?
That Cabri in Texas is about $100 more than what I pay to rent an R22 in California, but that $305that Revolution charges in
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When I visited the UK back in March of this year, I put a couple of hours on the G2, just to get the experience, and it cost me £432 per hour dual including VAT for a total of £864.
Here in the US, in an R22, those same two hours of dual would cost me $275 per hour including all taxes, for a total of $550, or £408 at the current exchange rate. Less than half! A bit of apples and oranges, since there are exchange rates in there, but quite a dramatic difference!
Cost not withstanding, I definitely found the experience worth doing once, as expensive as it was for me. Indeed, looking at VF's thread, he just proclaimed the G2 the best/easiest to auto-rotate after the 407. No wonder I thought it was so easy to auto
However, the cost differential between flying Robinson and Cabri falls into the category of fly or don't fly for me, and the risk/reward calculator that lives somewhere in the mushy thing in my head has calculated that the flying is worth the risk.
Here in the US, in an R22, those same two hours of dual would cost me $275 per hour including all taxes, for a total of $550, or £408 at the current exchange rate. Less than half! A bit of apples and oranges, since there are exchange rates in there, but quite a dramatic difference!
Cost not withstanding, I definitely found the experience worth doing once, as expensive as it was for me. Indeed, looking at VF's thread, he just proclaimed the G2 the best/easiest to auto-rotate after the 407. No wonder I thought it was so easy to auto
However, the cost differential between flying Robinson and Cabri falls into the category of fly or don't fly for me, and the risk/reward calculator that lives somewhere in the mushy thing in my head has calculated that the flying is worth the risk.
Indeed, looking at VF's thread, he just proclaimed the G2 the best/easiest to auto-rotate after the 407. No wonder I thought it was so easy to auto
Happy landings
Last edited by Vertical Freedom; 3rd Dec 2017 at 09:29.
But of course, the ultimate solution will be soon the G2/G4 combinaison.
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the G2 the best/easiest to auto-rotate after the 407
Just curious. Can't afford either anyway.
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Curious about this. I got an hour in the G2 at Redhill a while back and thoroughly enjoyed it, including a couple of autos. They went well, but not sure what makes it best/easiest. I have literally hundreds of autos in the R44 and don't find it especially difficult. Of course you have to be super focussed on everything at once, but once you get the hang of it - no harder than every other aspect of flying helis. I didn't find the G2 easier - what would that mean? Does it mean you have wider tolerance on RRPM and IAS than the R44, so you can afford to be distracted?
Just curious. Can't afford either anyway.
Just curious. Can't afford either anyway.
I have only the 22, 44 and G2 to compare. I've never flown anything else. With the G2 compared to the others, I wouldn't say that "you can afford to be distracted", but, yes, with the much wider band of allowable RRPM, combined with the much greater inertia of the rotor system, I noticed a dramatic difference. To me it was so much easier, the workload was that much lower. And my only full down ever is in the G2 (in Robinsons they are not typically done below the CFI level in the US--it's a risk/reward thing
). The instructor surprised me with an unplanned "Land it" on the last auto. I simply put it on the ground like it still had the power on. It was, surprisingly, that easy. No fuss, no muss. So easy I had the old student doubts about "Did I do that?" So I asked the instructor "Was that all me?" And it was! 
It's worlds different than an R22 or even an R44 IMHO. Apparently up there with the best there is, the B47 (not that I would know about that myself).