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Guimbal Cabri G2

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Guimbal Cabri G2

Old 23rd May 2018, 12:59
  #1261 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Originally Posted by Rotorbee View Post
Now back to the Cabri, which, we all can agree, is the better helicopter in probably every aspect, as is the Golf 7 compared to the Golf 1 (or the R22 A to the R22 Beta II).
Not necessarily. Perhaps if one only considers flight qualities, although IMHO I found it to be only different, not better. I posted my impressions much earlier in this topic. Somethings I like better, others not so much. Except auto's--those were unambiguously better! But if the issue is considered more holistically, economics is, as usual, a powerful force when considering what is "better". Until and unless the Cabri displaces a sufficient number of R22s in the training marketplace, it's not going to be better for business. If you are the prototypical budding professional helicopter pilot in the US, then you are going to be too poor, or too frugal, or both, to blow a lot more money on Cabri hours. And, since you are far more likely to get your first instructional gig instructing in R22s, prospective employers are going to be looking for familiarity with the Robinson type, especially given its more demanding characteristics in an instructional role. And in that marketplace, if you are a school that is dedicated solely to the Cabri platform, you may have trouble attracting students.

It's a classic chicken and egg problem. It remains to be seen if the marketplace considers the Cabri sufficiently better to displace a well established, well understood, and, one hopes, well run Robinson training ecosystem, at least in the US. However, it would not be unreasonable to expect that schools operating say three or four R22s might not replace one of them with a Cabri. That way the more well-heeled might have that choice, and it certainly seems reasonable that if they were keeping that many R22s sufficiently busy they might conceivably keep two R22s and a single Cabri equally busy. But that may be an overly simple supposition on my part when you consider that most such schools are already operating one or two R44s as well. Maybe the Cabri replaces one of the R44s, instead?

Great discussion. We'll know in another ten years or so how well the Cabri is doing in the US training market
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Old 23rd May 2018, 21:43
  #1262 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,624
Butters
Your examiner shouldnt be an examiner if in a test he requires you to do a vertical Take off to 100 ft. You obviously didnt bother to read my post properly did you. I was comparing 2 aircraft at the time, in the late 1980's YES the late 1980's please read the post.
Coming back to your beloved Beta11. Please do a vertical again to 100 ft and say to the examiner practice engine failure 3 2 1 go and see what he says. Oh yes by the way, why do we have to give that warning only in a Robinson product, in no other helicopter when you are examined ? Yes the Beta 2 is better than an Alpha or a Beta doesn't mean it is God's gift to the helicopter world as you seem to think. It has its place
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Old 23rd May 2018, 22:41
  #1263 (permalink)  
 
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Hughes ...... why waste your time ? He is just trying to wind you all up . Just leave him to play with his 22 and you and I can fly helicopters!
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Old 24th May 2018, 01:29
  #1264 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Hey butters, what’s the real operating cost of an R22? I mean the real cost, not what Robinson thinks it might be. You’ll find it surprising. Then do the same on the G2. You’ll be very surprised indeed.


Then come back to us about basic economics,


As for dissing the R22, I’m happy to diss the shortcomings of any product, praise it too, but too many of my friends have died in Robinsons for me to feel good about them, even though the course of my career means I’m about to get into one.
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Old 24th May 2018, 04:03
  #1265 (permalink)  
 
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Real costs over 5-10years

Why is everyone focusing just on the upfront purchase costs ONLY?
You've gotta operate these bucket of bolts too You know! Sure the r22 Plasticine wonder is 100k cheaper to buy than the Tonka tuff big G, but You are all forgetting that every 2,200 hrs or less You gotta fully rebuild the 22 (except the boom, that's every second rebuild) at almost a new ones price if You factor that into the hourly rate then the real cost of running a 22 is much, much higher than the big G is
So if it's about the money then the big G is the winner overall
You gotta ask Yourself what $$$ corners are being cut here to make the 22 so cheap to rent when they are far more expensive to run than the big G

Be Happy
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Old 24th May 2018, 06:36
  #1266 (permalink)  
 
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nigel

If you saw half of what I see as an examiner I have a duty of care to try and improve how people operate their machines. Now for an examiner to make a novice pilot do a vertical take off to 100 ft is well I will leave it to you !!!!!!
Butters please do me a favour and go read the height velocity curve, when I first started it was called the dead man's curve for good reason. Yes lots of us operate in it , I do all the time doing VR work. But it i is to be avoided, you appear to have a very cavalier attitude to flying. Please could you go back to your examiner do a 100 ft vertical and get him to show you what to do if the donk stops, you have a mag failure, leading plugs, oiling plugs and all the other things that got wrong with the sh1t Lycoming engine ( and yes I fly them in a 300 ) Please please go to 100 ft and shut the throttle on him and watch his face for the couple of seconds you have before you are taken away in a 7 ft long wooden box
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Old 24th May 2018, 06:42
  #1267 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Downwind
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You’re getting there butters, keep working at it and you’ll see through the smoke and mirrors.


Hint; ask the people who have both which one they’re likely to keep. Depending on how recently they acquired their Cabri, the answer may be “not sure, we’ll see how it goes” or it may be “when we can get more Cabri, the 22s will go”. Bear in mind that the Cabri is fairly new to the US. The truth will out in a few short years as it has in other parts of the world.
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Old 24th May 2018, 06:49
  #1268 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by r22butters View Post
Well, with every school from whom I've rented, when their 22's time out for rebuild, they disappear and I never see them again. I don't know anything about lease agreements, but it seems they just swap out the used up 22's for another one?

I've flown around thirty-five 22's over the years, but only two were brand spanking new. So maybe that's where the corners are cut?
VF summed it up well. The financial model isn't defined by what you are prepared to pay. Operational costs are what makes the difference for an operators bottom line. Many operators do not have the means to buy a new aircraft, they will buy an old Robbie that is getting near the end (because its cheap), ride out the hours and then flog the carcass. Rinse and repeat.
Those schools that are more substantial and use plenty of hours can invest in a new aircraft and gain the benefits from the improved maintenance schedule and overall lower running costs.

If Robinson ever try produce a new generation 22 (highly unlikely), or move away from that terrible rotor design, the modern certification costs are likely to narrow the gap to the Cabri which would spell the end for the 22.

Last edited by Bell_ringer; 24th May 2018 at 06:50. Reason: grammar gremlins
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Old 24th May 2018, 07:34
  #1269 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I’ve often wondered why Robinson haven’t done that, maybe they needed generational change first.
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Old 24th May 2018, 09:09
  #1270 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
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One thing is for certain, if Bruno is targeting the R22, he doesn't really "get" basic economics!
What is "basic econimics" for you? Who else should he target?
Economics happen to be not very scientific and a lot of guesswork. It worked out for Robinson, but not as he expected. It did not work out for a lot of other start-ups and sometimes people just have a very vague idea about the market and still make it.
Actually, thinking about it, today Guimbal might not look only at the R22 market anymore, but at the Cadet market. The R22s production will stop sometime and I suppose Robinson does not want give away the market share, but the Cadet does not seem to be the solution the market wants. Downgrading something to make it cheaper seldom works (ask Apple). I don't think Robinson has an option other than building a completely new training helicopter to replace the R22, if it wants to stay in this market. Who knows, they probably are happy with just the R44 and the R66, leaving the training market to Guimbal, whos G2 could with higher production rates, which will lower the effective price, become the winner.

If you don't factor in somehow the rebuild cost to your hourly rate, your going broke. There is no way, you don't pay for the rebuild in some way. Offer and demand in the used market will only offset so much of the rebuild cost. There are some operators who see themselves as very clever by trading Robinsons around (some are, some are not). It does make sense, if you don't want your maintenance department rebuilding the ships, because it is either too small or has better things to do. On the other hand, some companies make money by doing only rebuilds, because they don't make money flying the things. And if you streamline your processes the rebuild will be less expensive for the operators. The factory rebuild business of Robinson is not what it once was. Most Robinsons are now rebuild by others. Buy a kit and you are good to go.

When the R22 was designed, the fixed cost of the factory rebuild and the 2000 hour limit, where applauded in the market, because it made calculating the hourly cost so much easier, than with the old designs, where things had to be replaced in much less orderly fashion. Old ships like the 47 where always a nightmare in this respect, because you never knew, when to replace something for too much wear and tear and Bell did not make it any easier by rising prices constantly. That today we would rather want "on condition" parts, is obvious, but this can have its own stumbling blocks. But almost 50 years ago, "on condition" was rarely seen on helicopters and wasn't an option for Robinson, so he took the next best solution, give everything the same times - same as the engine - and a fixed price (well, more or less) for the rebuild. I think, this was a big part of the success of the R22. Now it was possible to buy a new inexpensive helicopter and run a business without many maintenance nightmares and make it through the first few difficult years. If you don't like Robinsons thinking, good for you, but many helicopter companies just use them and make money doing it. And for the widow-maker argument, AFIAK the accident rate of the R22 isn't the worst in the business even compared with fixed wing (comparing apples with apples) and the R44 had an excellent accident rate from the beginning. The Cabris rate is hard to beat, since there wasn't (again AFIAK) a single fatal accident ... yet.

I never had an examiner, nor instructors doing biannuals nor the instructors at the Robinson Safety Course doing 1 2 3. But one can feel what is coming, when the throttle is turning suddenly or even when the collective gets heavier or the examiners hand is moving stealthily toward the collective.
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Old 25th May 2018, 02:40
  #1271 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vertical Freedom View Post
Why is everyone focusing just on the upfront purchase costs ONLY?
You've gotta operate these bucket of bolts too You know! Sure the r22 Plasticine wonder is 100k cheaper to buy than the Tonka tuff big G, but You are all forgetting that every 2,200 hrs or less You gotta fully rebuild the 22 (except the boom, that's every second rebuild) at almost a new ones price if You factor that into the hourly rate then the real cost of running a 22 is much, much higher than the big G is
So if it's about the money then the big G is the winner overall
You gotta ask Yourself what $$$ corners are being cut here to make the 22 so cheap to rent when they are far more expensive to run than the big G
VF you are so totally off base here, and I'm really surprised that that is the case, because I have to believe that your economic savvy is just as good as everything else you do. I realize that some folks carry a lot of emotion with respect to Robinson helicopters, and that you lost someone close to you in a Robinson, but that in no way means that the economics of operating Robinsons violate the laws of physics, or sanity. Bottom line up front: the operating costs of an R22 are absolutely, positively and unambiguously lower than a G2, by some $125/hr, and that includes profit. This assumes, of course, that the average US hourly rate for a G2 of approx. $375 is set with the same degree of care that the average hourly rate for an R22 of $250 is set.

That $250/hr for an R22 easily covers all direct and indirect operating costs, including all fuel, oil, insurance, periodic maintenance, overhauls (yes, even the Big One), rebuilds, etc., etc., and provides a reasonable profit, as well. This requires, of course, that the ship is flying at least 500 hours a year or so such that the insurance is properly amortized, and that the operation in question qualifies for reasonable insurance rates. But these issues are the same for all helicopters, and familiar to all helicopter owners/operators, or at least should be. Similarly, the typical rate for an R44 of $450/hr works the same, and provides a profit close to $150/hr for a busy ship. As an owner of an R44, I can absolutely assure you this is the case.

As for what happens to old R22s, as far as I know the workhorses that belong to schools are overhauled in accordance with the maintenance manuals and keep on flying. I'm not aware of any sketchy stuff going on, at least not in this neck of the woods. The school I am associated with is also a Robinson dealer and maintenance organization and they overhaul timed out ships on a regular basis. I've watched the overhaul process and flown 22's both before and after their overhauls. No fuss, no muss, the system works, and provides a measure of predictability to maintenance costs far beyond that of other helicopters and still keeps operating costs lower than any other helicopter. The only downside is that one needs to bank those dollars and not be tempted to spend them prior to the Big Overhaul. You can predict your cash flow requirements much more easily with a Robinson, but you can also much more easily find yourself short of cash when the overhaul comes due if you don't exercise some appropriate fiscal restraint. When the latter problem occurs that's where you find good deals on timed out ships, which are subsequently purchased, properly overhauled by smarter operators. and put back to work.
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Old 28th May 2018, 14:23
  #1272 (permalink)  
 
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G2 close encounter with drone in CH
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...30630772400128
Dear friends, today a drone which was flying within the 5km radius around the airport of Locarno hit one of our Helicopters, damaging heavily one of the main rotor blades. The pilot took immediate action to reduce forward speed and landed just 2 minutes later at the Airfield. The drone was around 750g, and thankfully to the rapid response of the Cantonal Police the drone pilot could be found and identified. It seems the Drone Pilot was flying at around 3000 Ft AMSL (corresponding to around 1500 Ft AGL) in FPV (First Person View, looking to the camera screen, but not directly to the drone) mode, and did not hear the Cabri helicopter arriving neither realized the collision.
Speed was around 90 kts, hit on the forward blade so I estimate impact speed around 700km/h. Vibrations as usual after blade impact.
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Old 28th May 2018, 16:15
  #1273 (permalink)  
 
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Grrr Flimsy.........sure is!

Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
VF you are so totally off base here, and I'm really surprised that that is the case, because I have to believe that your economic savvy is just as good as everything else you do. I realize that some folks carry a lot of emotion with respect to Robinson helicopters, and that you lost someone close to you in a Robinson, but that in no way means that the economics of operating Robinsons violate the laws of physics, or sanity. Bottom line up front: the operating costs of an R22 are absolutely, positively and unambiguously lower than a G2, by some $125/hr, and that includes profit. This assumes, of course, that the average US hourly rate for a G2 of approx. $375 is set with the same degree of care that the average hourly rate for an R22 of $250 is set.

That $250/hr for an R22 easily covers all direct and indirect operating costs, including all fuel, oil, insurance, periodic maintenance, overhauls (yes, even the Big One), rebuilds, etc., etc., and provides a reasonable profit, as well. This requires, of course, that the ship is flying at least 500 hours a year or so such that the insurance is properly amortized, and that the operation in question qualifies for reasonable insurance rates. But these issues are the same for all helicopters, and familiar to all helicopter owners/operators, or at least should be. Similarly, the typical rate for an R44 of $450/hr works the same, and provides a profit close to $150/hr for a busy ship. As an owner of an R44, I can absolutely assure you this is the case.

As for what happens to old R22s, as far as I know the workhorses that belong to schools are overhauled in accordance with the maintenance manuals and keep on flying. I'm not aware of any sketchy stuff going on, at least not in this neck of the woods. The school I am associated with is also a Robinson dealer and maintenance organization and they overhaul timed out ships on a regular basis. I've watched the overhaul process and flown 22's both before and after their overhauls. No fuss, no muss, the system works, and provides a measure of predictability to maintenance costs far beyond that of other helicopters and still keeps operating costs lower than any other helicopter. The only downside is that one needs to bank those dollars and not be tempted to spend them prior to the Big Overhaul. You can predict your cash flow requirements much more easily with a Robinson, but you can also much more easily find yourself short of cash when the overhaul comes due if you don't exercise some appropriate fiscal restraint. When the latter problem occurs that's where you find good deals on timed out ships, which are subsequently purchased, properly overhauled by smarter operators. and put back to work.
Hey aa777888.....Lets just say I don't agree with Your opinion on the Robinson running costs.... (no offense intended) If You owned & operated one personally & covered all the real costs then You'd know, but, only then. I know a few private owners that are covering all the real costs & it ain't anywhere as cheap as what You think! The primary reason the Robbo is so popular is because of the purchase price, that's it, end of story You really think Frank had some extra unique magic dust in his pockets when he created the cheapest machine on Earth? It's a numbers game & all numbers are basically equal, unless pixi dust is replacing the magic dust

Be Happy; keep it in the green & do everything into wind, except pee
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Old 28th May 2018, 16:43
  #1274 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vertical Freedom View Post
Hey aa777888.....Lets just say I don't agree with Your opinion on the Robinson running costs.... (no offense intended)
Hi VF--no offense taken!
If You owned & operated one personally & covered all the real costs then You'd know, but, only then. I know a few private owners that are covering all the real costs & it ain't anywhere as cheap as what You think!
I do own and operate an R44. I charge myself back for each hour I spend in it, and I charge the school the same when they use it as part of a lease agreement I have with them (not a full lease-back, but an hour-by-hour deal). I can honestly tell you I'm covering all costs, including cost of money on the loan. In fact, at the risk of jinxing myself by saying this, right now I'm slightly ahead of the game. Barring any unscheduled maintenance, I might be able to make an avionics investment next year. So now maybe you "know", in the internet sense, FWIW, another one
The primary reason the Robbo is so popular is because of the purchase price, that's it, end of story You really think Frank had some extra unique magic dust in his pockets when he created the cheapest machine on Earth? It's a numbers game & all numbers are basically equal, unless pixi dust is replacing the magic dust
So far my experience has been it is the cheapest from both a capital and operating cost perspective, and done without any magic. I seriously considered buying an old 369C or 206 for not much more. My goodness, I would so much rather be flying something like that. But it would cost me twice as much to fly per hour as the 44, and I simply can't swing that. Turbine maintenance and turbine insurance are expensive, as we all well know!
Be Happy; keep it in the green & do everything into wind, except pee
I will endeavor to do so, my internet-friend, thanks!
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Old 29th May 2018, 07:43
  #1275 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Danger Flimsy.........sure is!

G'day aa777888.....great to hear Brother, enjoy the ride! Do avoid any & all turbulence as that head is designed to self destruct & could never today pass a certification process the way it did when it did! Like to see it do the 'lamp post' test the way a G2 had too

So Frank created magic by cutting corners, that is obvious. Otherwise his numbers would stack up similar to the others. There are no secrets there

Happy Landings

Last edited by Vertical Freedom; 29th May 2018 at 13:09.
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Old 29th May 2018, 09:02
  #1276 (permalink)  
RotorHead
 
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The G2 seems to be very popular in Canada with BC Helicopters. Their commercial courses are booked up until 2019. I'm looking to get my Canadian CPL completed this year and thus wanted to do it in the Cabri. It's either wait a year or do it on the 44 with Chinook this year.
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 19:46
  #1277 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Looks like the Cabri’s safety features did their job again in the Goodwood Aerodrome Accident today.
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Old 27th Jun 2018, 10:18
  #1278 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
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Does anyone know if cargo pods are available for the Cabri yet?
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Old 28th Jun 2018, 07:53
  #1279 (permalink)  
 
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Emergency floats are certified approx 5 years ago...
http://www.helihub.com/wordpress/wp-...ri-floats2.jpg
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Old 29th Jun 2018, 05:28
  #1280 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone know if cargo pods are available for the Cabri yet?
Looking at the gear design you may be waiting a while.
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