Shirley Bassey & Night Flying (UK)
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Twiddle
Us commercial pilots haven’t all got it in for this guy, but asides from endangering his pax and himself, it’s incidents such as this which give the industry a bad name. It also highlights the very real commercial pressure which is prevalent (bordering endemic in some areas) in the charter industry. Admittedly, this incident probably wouldn’t have made the press save for the celeb cargo, but it emphasizes a practice which is far too familiar in the industry.
As you said yourself, however, YOU TURNED BACK and diverted into AN AIRPORT, which was also an option also for the pilot in question; but one which he apparently chose not to take.
By the by, I wasn’t aware that Sunday had anything exceptional about the weather – bad weather is bad weather whatever day of the week it occurs on.
P.S. Out of interest, what Lesson of the PPL(H) teaches you about having ‘the acceptance that you might be letting down in a field’?! In the 18 years since I did mine maybe the syllabus has changed. We all know we can do it, but it’s not something us commercial pilots factor into our flight planning – this is not a back up plan!
Us commercial pilots haven’t all got it in for this guy, but asides from endangering his pax and himself, it’s incidents such as this which give the industry a bad name. It also highlights the very real commercial pressure which is prevalent (bordering endemic in some areas) in the charter industry. Admittedly, this incident probably wouldn’t have made the press save for the celeb cargo, but it emphasizes a practice which is far too familiar in the industry.
As you said yourself, however, YOU TURNED BACK and diverted into AN AIRPORT, which was also an option also for the pilot in question; but one which he apparently chose not to take.
By the by, I wasn’t aware that Sunday had anything exceptional about the weather – bad weather is bad weather whatever day of the week it occurs on.
P.S. Out of interest, what Lesson of the PPL(H) teaches you about having ‘the acceptance that you might be letting down in a field’?! In the 18 years since I did mine maybe the syllabus has changed. We all know we can do it, but it’s not something us commercial pilots factor into our flight planning – this is not a back up plan!
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You're 100% right, in fact, you shouldn't risk flying in the UK, as you need to think on your feet, if you are looking on the TAF for a day that's guaranteed flyable then they are probably in the minority.The bottom line is that provided you're not foolish then it can be flyable, but you have to know the limits, you have to have a plan B, and that plan B had better involve 1 of a friend, a taxi, a scheduled flight, a train or a hotel.It's very easy to point at a TAF and say I told you so, it's also very easy to look at 2 METARS and say we could have done it, both points of view can be wrong.
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Letting down into a field with good vis but closing in is better than whapping a pylon fighting back to an airport, I'd land and wait for it to clear and complete whatever paperwork I needed to any day in preference to pushing on, showing some bravado and risking the health of anybody who flew with me. I'm saying that some days you just need to be there, and Sunday it was all moving pretty fast, we did turn back, but if it had closed in we 'd have been in a field with no arguments, we wouldn't have pushed onto Shoreham come what may.
<added this bit after the first post>
Like us he may well have decided two minimas, 1 for turning back and one for setting down immediately, but who knows, as I said, you had to be there, given that he did have somebody on-board that would certainly attract attention if he did put down off sirfield then I don't think we should ever criticise somebody for putting down, that's only ever going to add to the push-on-itus, and I'm not aware of anybody ever being injured from a prudent early let down?
- Unless (for the British Ester fans....) you know different???!!!!!
<added this bit after the first post>
Like us he may well have decided two minimas, 1 for turning back and one for setting down immediately, but who knows, as I said, you had to be there, given that he did have somebody on-board that would certainly attract attention if he did put down off sirfield then I don't think we should ever criticise somebody for putting down, that's only ever going to add to the push-on-itus, and I'm not aware of anybody ever being injured from a prudent early let down?
- Unless (for the British Ester fans....) you know different???!!!!!
Last edited by Twiddle; 25th Jun 2007 at 21:44. Reason: Not on a PDA so I can spell now!!!!
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Just to add to the conjecture the aircraft pictured in the news looks like a single, if the weather was that bad that the pilot had to land then how low had the pilot been flying up til this point, the A30 corridor around Camberley is fairly congested maybe we should add to the avoid vfr flying in the UK post, 'also avoid flying in crap weather over congested areas in a single in the UK' too? that point of view is fairly right on all accounts, isn't it?
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I think you’re missing the point Twiddle. He didn’t just fly into this weather from out of the blue, and unlike you, who did divert to an airport, he flew past two within 3nm of his eventual LS.
Plus Expenses stated it clearly and concisely; the weather was crap, forecast to stay the same and he binned it.
The forecast hasn’t changed much in the last 10 days, and if anything it has deteriorated. As commercial pilots we fly to strict minima which far exceed a PPLs. I’m not knocking PPLs; I started as one and worked my way up to ATPL(H). We’re not infallible gods and have all experienced bad weather en route on tasks at some time, and most have also had to put down in a field at sometime, but the forecast on Sunday was not marginal it was PANTS from Somerset to Surrey and beyond. He had no right being in the air on a commercial charter, if that’s what it was.
With the greatest of respect, decisions made between pilots and their friends out on a jolly, however, are not governed by the same rules as commercial flights (as I'm you’re aware).
Plus Expenses stated it clearly and concisely; the weather was crap, forecast to stay the same and he binned it.
The forecast hasn’t changed much in the last 10 days, and if anything it has deteriorated. As commercial pilots we fly to strict minima which far exceed a PPLs. I’m not knocking PPLs; I started as one and worked my way up to ATPL(H). We’re not infallible gods and have all experienced bad weather en route on tasks at some time, and most have also had to put down in a field at sometime, but the forecast on Sunday was not marginal it was PANTS from Somerset to Surrey and beyond. He had no right being in the air on a commercial charter, if that’s what it was.
With the greatest of respect, decisions made between pilots and their friends out on a jolly, however, are not governed by the same rules as commercial flights (as I'm you’re aware).
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Yawn.........Next subject to tear apart please
,
Lets talk about the benefits of tinting your windows so the public (and CAA) come to think of it cant see in but you can see out...... i`d go for 20% myself.... You Decide
,Lets talk about the benefits of tinting your windows so the public (and CAA) come to think of it cant see in but you can see out...... i`d go for 20% myself.... You Decide
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Tinted windows, now you're going to get me going, call yourself a pilot.....
curtains on a Cherokee 6 fine, but tints....
Point taken about CPL/AOC minimas, as I said I'm not aware of what they are, but putting down is preferable to pushing on, that's the point I'm making, should he have lifted, who knows in truth, it was changing every few minutes from not seeing the trees across the airfield to looking reasonable.
As I said, I'm not a CPL so I can't comment, I'm jabbering beyond my knowledge, but I have to respect a guys decision to put it on the deck, if my family were on board, that's what I'd expect. Should he have lifted, we I can see the other side in that Gatwick said it was good, Shoreham not too bad, Lydd was fine so it seemed fairly local to where we were at that moment in time.
curtains on a Cherokee 6 fine, but tints....Point taken about CPL/AOC minimas, as I said I'm not aware of what they are, but putting down is preferable to pushing on, that's the point I'm making, should he have lifted, who knows in truth, it was changing every few minutes from not seeing the trees across the airfield to looking reasonable.
As I said, I'm not a CPL so I can't comment, I'm jabbering beyond my knowledge, but I have to respect a guys decision to put it on the deck, if my family were on board, that's what I'd expect. Should he have lifted, we I can see the other side in that Gatwick said it was good, Shoreham not too bad, Lydd was fine so it seemed fairly local to where we were at that moment in time.
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Twiddle
My first post on this thread started out with, 'Firstly, well done to the pilot for getting the aircraft down safely, but it raises several serious questions.' So essentially we're in agreement. But the longer you're in this industry and the more people you see buy the farm, the more frustrated you get at lessons not learnt, that's all. And it's not just the pilots; operators and commercial pressure are a whole other thread; one which has no doubt been done to death if you excuse the pun, but little seems to have changed. BFN
My first post on this thread started out with, 'Firstly, well done to the pilot for getting the aircraft down safely, but it raises several serious questions.' So essentially we're in agreement. But the longer you're in this industry and the more people you see buy the farm, the more frustrated you get at lessons not learnt, that's all. And it's not just the pilots; operators and commercial pressure are a whole other thread; one which has no doubt been done to death if you excuse the pun, but little seems to have changed. BFN
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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plodpilot, I found some of your comments rather insulting, however, given that you don't know me or my full background I should perhaps elaborate a little. Firstly, I would point out that there is very little that is "sheltered" about doing day/night, all-weather sar, including night low level, in mountains, or offshore, in pants weather, when someone is critically injured and counting on you to get them out of there, something I did for 10 years. If you think that is "sheltered" and not done under some "pressure" maybe it is you that needs the reality check.
A simple point about having an IR and an IFR equipped aircraft, icing permitting, if you encounter bad weather, you can plan to pull up into it talk to atc, navigate by vor/dme/adf to the nearest suitable airfield, or your destination and shoot an instrument approach down to ils minma, which are considerably lower than what you can have visually. You can plan to do this before you even start up. You don't need to start from an airfield or even have an airfield as your final destination. I have used this on numerous occassions operating to field sites and hospitals across the uk.
I accept I was rather constrictive in my comments about night vfr, what I should have said is that if you don't have and can't guarantee to maintain good ground references then it shouldn't happen. Having been tri/tre in my last company, we did not as routine IR police only pilots, however the night check did require instrument recovery from unusual attitudes, in case of inadvertant imc, and an ability to reach the nearest airfield and shoot an approach, usually coupled. The standard displayed by some people when denied ground references was shocking and required additional training. The most ludicrous comment I heard during this was one pilot who "in 10 years had never gone inadvertant imc" and therefore pronounced that it could not happen to him.
Long night flights, such as manchester-london have resulted in tragedies which have usually included the elements of non-ir pilot/machine, deteriorating weather and loss of ground references before loss of control. I have attended too many aircraft accidents to think that the present rules/ training system will prevent further accidents.
One final point, I work for a VERY large GA company, much larger than any operator in the uk, so I think I know something about commercial pressure too, fly safe and enjoy
A simple point about having an IR and an IFR equipped aircraft, icing permitting, if you encounter bad weather, you can plan to pull up into it talk to atc, navigate by vor/dme/adf to the nearest suitable airfield, or your destination and shoot an instrument approach down to ils minma, which are considerably lower than what you can have visually. You can plan to do this before you even start up. You don't need to start from an airfield or even have an airfield as your final destination. I have used this on numerous occassions operating to field sites and hospitals across the uk.
I accept I was rather constrictive in my comments about night vfr, what I should have said is that if you don't have and can't guarantee to maintain good ground references then it shouldn't happen. Having been tri/tre in my last company, we did not as routine IR police only pilots, however the night check did require instrument recovery from unusual attitudes, in case of inadvertant imc, and an ability to reach the nearest airfield and shoot an approach, usually coupled. The standard displayed by some people when denied ground references was shocking and required additional training. The most ludicrous comment I heard during this was one pilot who "in 10 years had never gone inadvertant imc" and therefore pronounced that it could not happen to him.
Long night flights, such as manchester-london have resulted in tragedies which have usually included the elements of non-ir pilot/machine, deteriorating weather and loss of ground references before loss of control. I have attended too many aircraft accidents to think that the present rules/ training system will prevent further accidents.
One final point, I work for a VERY large GA company, much larger than any operator in the uk, so I think I know something about commercial pressure too, fly safe and enjoy
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K.I.I.T, you are obviously such a sensitive soul, but like so many others you fail to see the point being made.
By your own admission you spent some years in the military environment and like others before you, perhaps sought a job in civvy street that closely emulated that which you were used to, hence you joined a company perhaps like BOND or PAS.
The point I made was about the "Commercial Charter World", the part of the industry that has a percentage of full time pilots but relies heavily on freelance guys.
This is a part of the industry where pilots are often expected to work long days, operate in not so good conditions and hardly ever for the best pay return but are always expected to not only get the job done, but do it well.
My point is, that this is a hard part of the industry to work in - to get work , to do it - quite often involving long distances and night flights often at the same time. No, Police, HEMS or SAR does not really fall into the commercial charter category.
So, telling guys in the charter world that they should only fly in the circuit at night unless they have an IR ( cos that obviously gives them super powers) is an insult.
Charter is the bread and butter of a lot of pilots, with and without IR.
Just a point, but I was not aware that there had been so many accidents caused by long distance night flights.
I have over 5000 hours, all rotary, in many environments but I dont feel it necessary to flex my ego.
One last thing, it concerns your final point. "Size isn't everything"
Kind regards
By your own admission you spent some years in the military environment and like others before you, perhaps sought a job in civvy street that closely emulated that which you were used to, hence you joined a company perhaps like BOND or PAS.
The point I made was about the "Commercial Charter World", the part of the industry that has a percentage of full time pilots but relies heavily on freelance guys.
This is a part of the industry where pilots are often expected to work long days, operate in not so good conditions and hardly ever for the best pay return but are always expected to not only get the job done, but do it well.
My point is, that this is a hard part of the industry to work in - to get work , to do it - quite often involving long distances and night flights often at the same time. No, Police, HEMS or SAR does not really fall into the commercial charter category.
So, telling guys in the charter world that they should only fly in the circuit at night unless they have an IR ( cos that obviously gives them super powers) is an insult.
Charter is the bread and butter of a lot of pilots, with and without IR.
Just a point, but I was not aware that there had been so many accidents caused by long distance night flights.
I have over 5000 hours, all rotary, in many environments but I dont feel it necessary to flex my ego.
One last thing, it concerns your final point. "Size isn't everything"
Kind regards
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Quote from the Daily Mail.
"Mr Paxton had offered her a lift in his helicopter because he was going to Glastonbury anyway.
The qualified commercial pilot said: "The trip down was fine but it was obvious that the weather was getting worse. "As we approached the hotel I knew there was not enough time to guarantee a safe arrival. I saw a sports field ahead and decided to land there."
He added: "There was not one point where I felt remotely concerned. Safety is paramount when flying and I am always aware of what impact the weather may have.
"If I had not decided to divert, there could have been a situation where there were multiple fatalities.
"I am not willing to put anybody's life at risk, whether it be a Dame or any other passenger."
"Mr Paxton had offered her a lift in his helicopter because he was going to Glastonbury anyway.
The qualified commercial pilot said: "The trip down was fine but it was obvious that the weather was getting worse. "As we approached the hotel I knew there was not enough time to guarantee a safe arrival. I saw a sports field ahead and decided to land there."
He added: "There was not one point where I felt remotely concerned. Safety is paramount when flying and I am always aware of what impact the weather may have.
"If I had not decided to divert, there could have been a situation where there were multiple fatalities.
"I am not willing to put anybody's life at risk, whether it be a Dame or any other passenger."
God some of you guys are chippy !!!! Why not do charter in a 500 ??? ( other than comfort !) How would a twin have made any difference ??? What is the big deal about letting down in a field ? it is not something you want to make a habit of but for gods sake dont knock it . I would tell any low time pilot to do exactly that . I have landed in fields a few times and not even shut down and been flying again in 10 mins with no worries with the bad weather behind me. To say that the last few days have been unflyable is nonsense , i would not like to have you as my pilot if you feel a few clouds and cb,s stops you from doing your job
actually , in between the weather the viz was excellent but it would appear that he could not go around his front so landed .....big deal 
ps all my flights went like clockwork .....even without an IR and with only one engine
actually , in between the weather the viz was excellent but it would appear that he could not go around his front so landed .....big deal ps all my flights went like clockwork .....even without an IR and with only one engine
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So it was Jeremy Paxton flying DSB back from the Glastonswamp in a private Hughes and a precautionary landing in a field rather than an engine failure.
He made the right call by the sound of things, we have all been there.
Amazing the headlines the press can come up with... it actually made me read the thread!
sells papers too!
SB
He made the right call by the sound of things, we have all been there.
Amazing the headlines the press can come up with... it actually made me read the thread!
sells papers too!
SB
The Original Whirly
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I just found this thread; been a bit busy lately.
Have we managed to run to a three page discussion on....WHAT THE PRESS REPORT SAID?!!!! I can hardly believe it. Or have I missed something?
Firstly, reporters make up quotes. Not embellish, not adapt, but make up. Not all of them, not the good ones, but a lot. I know; I've been misquoted before now....correction; they've made up things I never said and never would have said.
Secondly, no-one can tell from the ground if you're narrowly missing power lines etc, or missing them by a safe margin.
Thirdly, the CAA Safety Sense leaflet on Helicopter Flying says something like, "You have the unique ability to land almost anywhere, so use it if you have to".
|Hmmm... I flew into Southampton yesterday with a couple of (thankfully) non-famous people who I was dropping off. One of them was pretty nervous, so I was flying ever so carefully and doing nothing dramatic. As we approached the airfield I saw a shower coming in; nothing awful, but I'd rather not land in the middle of it if I didn't have to. Without thinking I said, "Ooops, there's a shower over there, I'll just speed up a bit and whip it round and land quickly". Then I sensed the increase in tension from the back, so I tried to explain that it was no big deal, but why land and have to get out in the rain if we really didn't have to.
Now, suppose those people had been famous, and a reporter had been watching, on a day with little news.....
MR AND MRS X SAVED FROM DANGEROUS THUNDERSTORM
The wellknown Mr and Mrs X were approaching Southampton when a huge thunderstorm approached. The pilot threw the helicopter around, narrowly avoiding (fill in the gaps yourself; it's Southampton; you can have anything you like...schools, old folks homes, factories etc) and skillfully landed it on the main runway, where seconds before an airliner carrying large numbers of passengers had been taxying. Moments later the heavens opened. Mrs X said, "That was so scary; I don't know what we would have done if she hadn't managed to think quickly and land like that; I was terrifed when she turned sharply, but if we hadn't I might have been dead". The pilot sat there in total shock and said...nothing (Hmm...I wonder why).
Enough said.
Have we managed to run to a three page discussion on....WHAT THE PRESS REPORT SAID?!!!! I can hardly believe it. Or have I missed something?
Firstly, reporters make up quotes. Not embellish, not adapt, but make up. Not all of them, not the good ones, but a lot. I know; I've been misquoted before now....correction; they've made up things I never said and never would have said.
Secondly, no-one can tell from the ground if you're narrowly missing power lines etc, or missing them by a safe margin.
Thirdly, the CAA Safety Sense leaflet on Helicopter Flying says something like, "You have the unique ability to land almost anywhere, so use it if you have to".
|Hmmm... I flew into Southampton yesterday with a couple of (thankfully) non-famous people who I was dropping off. One of them was pretty nervous, so I was flying ever so carefully and doing nothing dramatic. As we approached the airfield I saw a shower coming in; nothing awful, but I'd rather not land in the middle of it if I didn't have to. Without thinking I said, "Ooops, there's a shower over there, I'll just speed up a bit and whip it round and land quickly". Then I sensed the increase in tension from the back, so I tried to explain that it was no big deal, but why land and have to get out in the rain if we really didn't have to.
Now, suppose those people had been famous, and a reporter had been watching, on a day with little news.....
MR AND MRS X SAVED FROM DANGEROUS THUNDERSTORM
The wellknown Mr and Mrs X were approaching Southampton when a huge thunderstorm approached. The pilot threw the helicopter around, narrowly avoiding (fill in the gaps yourself; it's Southampton; you can have anything you like...schools, old folks homes, factories etc) and skillfully landed it on the main runway, where seconds before an airliner carrying large numbers of passengers had been taxying. Moments later the heavens opened. Mrs X said, "That was so scary; I don't know what we would have done if she hadn't managed to think quickly and land like that; I was terrifed when she turned sharply, but if we hadn't I might have been dead". The pilot sat there in total shock and said...nothing (Hmm...I wonder why).
Enough said.
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plod pilot
i suggest you re-read my second post, I accept that night vfr does have to happen outside the circuit, but the way some of it is done at present is very marginal. I am well aware of commercial pressure in the company I work for at the moment, size is not the issue, if you read my post, public transport in a very high pressure environment is what I do every day now.
I know and accept that the commercial charter market is a tough COMMERCIAL dog eat dog market, and each job brings its own challenges but your derogatory comments about sar/hems being in someones comfort zone or somehow easier suggest that you are merely being argumentative, for some reason have a low opinion of all these cossetted sar pilots, or you have no knowledge or experience of what the job involves.
You seem to suggest that the commercial charter market is a much tougher environment to operate in than sar, having done both I think they are both demanding but in very different ways, in one it is often the case that risks are taken to get the job done, in the other there is a lot of pressure to take risks to get the job done.
I didn't wave my hours under your nose, because that has little to do with the validity of my or your opinion, but I have plenty thank you, not that it makes any difference. Enjoy
regards
i suggest you re-read my second post, I accept that night vfr does have to happen outside the circuit, but the way some of it is done at present is very marginal. I am well aware of commercial pressure in the company I work for at the moment, size is not the issue, if you read my post, public transport in a very high pressure environment is what I do every day now.
I know and accept that the commercial charter market is a tough COMMERCIAL dog eat dog market, and each job brings its own challenges but your derogatory comments about sar/hems being in someones comfort zone or somehow easier suggest that you are merely being argumentative, for some reason have a low opinion of all these cossetted sar pilots, or you have no knowledge or experience of what the job involves.
You seem to suggest that the commercial charter market is a much tougher environment to operate in than sar, having done both I think they are both demanding but in very different ways, in one it is often the case that risks are taken to get the job done, in the other there is a lot of pressure to take risks to get the job done.
I didn't wave my hours under your nose, because that has little to do with the validity of my or your opinion, but I have plenty thank you, not that it makes any difference. Enjoy
regards
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Well it seems like he was doing it as a favour………..So he did well as a PPL to make the decision to put it down in a field before it all went wrong. Well done JP and Dame SB didn’t look any worse for wear.
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Hi all,
I'm new to posting on the forum but have been browsing for some time.
I've been reading this thread with interest, and I'm just a bit confused as to what licence the pilot holds, is it a PPL or a CPL? The quote from the Daily Mail says "...The Qualified Commercial Pilot..." I know, before anyone says it, I shouldn't believe all I read in the media, just curious, that's all.
Finally, what's the significance of needing a JAA CPL in order to fly a commercial flight? I don't hold one (don't particularly want one) and have been flying commercially in the UK for thirty odd years, I do, however hold a UK ATPLH/IR. Just nit-picking.
I'm new to posting on the forum but have been browsing for some time.
I've been reading this thread with interest, and I'm just a bit confused as to what licence the pilot holds, is it a PPL or a CPL? The quote from the Daily Mail says "...The Qualified Commercial Pilot..." I know, before anyone says it, I shouldn't believe all I read in the media, just curious, that's all.
Finally, what's the significance of needing a JAA CPL in order to fly a commercial flight? I don't hold one (don't particularly want one) and have been flying commercially in the UK for thirty odd years, I do, however hold a UK ATPLH/IR. Just nit-picking
.