Shirley Bassey & Night Flying (UK)
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ANO is here
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2005/20051970.htm
I'm buggered if I can find the night-VFR-IF bit
Anyone care to try?
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2005/20051970.htm
I'm buggered if I can find the night-VFR-IF bit
Anyone care to try?
Section 6 - Instrument Flight Rules.
In a nutshell, below 3000' and outside controlled airspace you just have to stay visual with the ground, clear of cloud and with more than 800m in flight vis.
Only in the UK could something that sounds like VFR flight be classed as IFR!!
In a nutshell, below 3000' and outside controlled airspace you just have to stay visual with the ground, clear of cloud and with more than 800m in flight vis.
Only in the UK could something that sounds like VFR flight be classed as IFR!!
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I thought that might generate a reaction!
However, it is true. To anyone who needs convincing, have a read of Rule 20 of the Rules of the Air and in particular 20(2):
In the UK an aircraft flying at night shall-
a) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules outside a control zone;
b) be flown in accordance with Instrument Flight Rules in a control zone unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.
It is a source of great confusion not only outside the UK CAA but within it too. If you read a number of their own documents they read as if night VFR is permitted.
As others have said, having set up that rule, there are then a series of further rules to allow pilots/aircraft who cannot fly "full" IFR to fly at night IFR, but only visual contact flights.
How to make something complicated.........
However, it is true. To anyone who needs convincing, have a read of Rule 20 of the Rules of the Air and in particular 20(2):
In the UK an aircraft flying at night shall-
a) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules outside a control zone;
b) be flown in accordance with Instrument Flight Rules in a control zone unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.
It is a source of great confusion not only outside the UK CAA but within it too. If you read a number of their own documents they read as if night VFR is permitted.
As others have said, having set up that rule, there are then a series of further rules to allow pilots/aircraft who cannot fly "full" IFR to fly at night IFR, but only visual contact flights.
How to make something complicated.........
Well thanks for clearing that up ......as clear as MUD !!!
As far as i,m concerned night vfr ( or whatever you or the caa wish to call it ...is legal)
And i think you will find that it is private and not public transport if you take cash
( in the ANO part 24 section 12 (b) )
As far as i,m concerned night vfr ( or whatever you or the caa wish to call it ...is legal)And i think you will find that it is private and not public transport if you take cash
( in the ANO part 24 section 12 (b) )
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Hmmm.....
I have just downloaded CAP393 from the CAA's web site and can't find Part 24, Section 12(b). I can find article 24 which is to do with Airworthiness, but has no sections.
Am I going mad? Or is NigelH having us on?
I have just downloaded CAP393 from the CAA's web site and can't find Part 24, Section 12(b). I can find article 24 which is to do with Airworthiness, but has no sections.
Am I going mad? Or is NigelH having us on?
Froggy
Just to clarify
Quoting from the Rules of the Air
Choice of VFR or IFR
20.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall always be flown in accordance with the
Visual Flight Rules or the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In the United Kingdom an aircraft flying at night shall—
(a) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules outside a control zone;
(b) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules in a control zone unless it is
flying on a special VFR flight.
V
Just to clarify
Quoting from the Rules of the Air
Choice of VFR or IFR
20.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall always be flown in accordance with the
Visual Flight Rules or the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In the United Kingdom an aircraft flying at night shall—
(a) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules outside a control zone;
(b) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules in a control zone unless it is
flying on a special VFR flight.
V
i have no instrument rating , am in a single , and the flight is technically IFR.
Avoid imitations
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S2, No, you have hopefully cleared the point up for those who didn't understand.
The difficulty most folk have is getting to grips with the "let out clause" (my italics) in the definition of IFR; ie, Rule 33 (d).
The Police Air Ops Manual refers to this as "visual contact flight", or VCF.
I do think it's time the rules were written in more plain English to remove these anomalies; but I ain't volunteering.
The difficulty most folk have is getting to grips with the "let out clause" (my italics) in the definition of IFR; ie, Rule 33 (d).
The Police Air Ops Manual refers to this as "visual contact flight", or VCF.
I do think it's time the rules were written in more plain English to remove these anomalies; but I ain't volunteering.
So, just to answer the question posed by this thread title, no - DSB was not in a heli which had an engine failure.
She was in a heli which was being flown perfectly correctly according to the rules of this fine country. Clear of cloud, in sight of the surface and with an ability to land without endangering people or property on the surface.
96 posts - many apparently from pro pilots not understanding the rules. As a result, nearly 8000 viewers must be confused.
I've seen more clarity in the waters of South Yorkshire this week.
She was in a heli which was being flown perfectly correctly according to the rules of this fine country. Clear of cloud, in sight of the surface and with an ability to land without endangering people or property on the surface.
96 posts - many apparently from pro pilots not understanding the rules. As a result, nearly 8000 viewers must be confused.
I've seen more clarity in the waters of South Yorkshire this week.
91205,
Don't delete the thread; repeating the rule again and again might eventually ensure that professional pilots read and understand the conditions under which night flying can be conducted...that is until EASA takes legal responsibility and provides single set of 'Rules of the Air' for the whole of Europe.
Reading and understanding the ANO - and other regulations - is not just a matter of passing examinations; it's in everyone's interest to know the rules, understand their own limitations and to operate within both.
Jim
Don't delete the thread; repeating the rule again and again might eventually ensure that professional pilots read and understand the conditions under which night flying can be conducted...that is until EASA takes legal responsibility and provides single set of 'Rules of the Air' for the whole of Europe.
Reading and understanding the ANO - and other regulations - is not just a matter of passing examinations; it's in everyone's interest to know the rules, understand their own limitations and to operate within both.
Jim
Last edited by JimL; 30th Jun 2007 at 10:46.
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She was in a heli which was being flown perfectly correctly according to the rules of this fine country. Clear of cloud, in sight of the surface and with an ability to land without endangering people or property on the surface
Not quite. The rule now refers to "with the surface in sight" which means "with the flight crew being able to see sufficient surface features or surface illumination to enable the flight crew to maintain the aircraft in a desired attitude without reference to any flight instrument..."
Splitting hairs, I know, and I don't think this detracts from the point of JB's post but heli pilots should be aware of the tightening up of the COCISOS rule we've enjoyed up till now.
901205,
Please don't delete this one, It may be appropriate to rename it as the thread has crept quite a lot now.
Things like this a lot of people find quite useful as some don't understand the rules or are not even aware of recent changes such as the 1500m vis minima or the no IMC unless instrument rated (even with a professional licence) rules, which both came about in March 2007.
I've spoken to 3 AOC operators in the last 3 weeks who didn't know about the recent changes. 2 of whom received their subscription updates to the ANO and The Rules of The Air last week. (Almost 3 months after the rules changed).
Perhaps it highlights a problem with the way information is disseminated by the CAA, but thats a whole other argument for another thread.
GS
Please don't delete this one, It may be appropriate to rename it as the thread has crept quite a lot now.
Things like this a lot of people find quite useful as some don't understand the rules or are not even aware of recent changes such as the 1500m vis minima or the no IMC unless instrument rated (even with a professional licence) rules, which both came about in March 2007.
I've spoken to 3 AOC operators in the last 3 weeks who didn't know about the recent changes. 2 of whom received their subscription updates to the ANO and The Rules of The Air last week. (Almost 3 months after the rules changed).
Perhaps it highlights a problem with the way information is disseminated by the CAA, but thats a whole other argument for another thread.
GS
Reading through the posts, I think the general misconception is simple. People are easily confused by the terms IMC (Instrument meteorological conditions), and IFR (Instrument flight rules)
Two completely different things but important when looked at together.
Anyone can fly using IFR as the minima, but not all can fly in IMC. The latter would mean you're in clouds/bad vis etc. IFR, you could be in Visual conditions but abiding by the IFR rules, hence, not need an IR to do so.
You could be SVFR in controlled airspace, at night, without an IR, flying under IFR, even though VMC exist. Aren't these rules fantastic? Lets not even start on the SVR bit just yet....again.
Two completely different things but important when looked at together.
Anyone can fly using IFR as the minima, but not all can fly in IMC. The latter would mean you're in clouds/bad vis etc. IFR, you could be in Visual conditions but abiding by the IFR rules, hence, not need an IR to do so.
You could be SVFR in controlled airspace, at night, without an IR, flying under IFR, even though VMC exist. Aren't these rules fantastic? Lets not even start on the SVR bit just yet....again.
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Anyone can fly using IFR as the minima
"....... unless his licence includes an instrument rating (helicopter) fly as pilot in command or co-pilot of such a helicopter in circumstances which require
compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules:
(i) in Class A, B or C airspace at any time; or
(ii) in Class D, E, F or G airspace unless flying at night and remaining clear of
cloud and with the surface in sight......"
Holders of a CPL(H) may indeed operate IFR in Class D, E, F or G airspace providing they remain clear of cloud and with the surface in sight.
