Age Discrimination: Fighting the CAA! (+ update)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kings Caple, Ross-on-Wye.orPiccots End. Hertfordshire
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Age & Journalism
Whirly B has it right ..... Aviation journalism is about writing words the punters want to read. Getting the subject matter right is simply research.
So as I endeavour to draw myself away from day to day flying, I'm entering the news industry as a wordsmith, and very enjoyable it is too.
Flying a couple of classic Westlands, a few days with an Istanbul Medivac operation, (A 109 Grand) and another day scheduled for the Blue Eagles team.
So a plug for my employer. LOOP is now into its 17th edition and its free ... just log on to www.loop.aero
Regards to all. (70 plus and putting up with it !)
DRK
So as I endeavour to draw myself away from day to day flying, I'm entering the news industry as a wordsmith, and very enjoyable it is too.
Flying a couple of classic Westlands, a few days with an Istanbul Medivac operation, (A 109 Grand) and another day scheduled for the Blue Eagles team.
So a plug for my employer. LOOP is now into its 17th edition and its free ... just log on to www.loop.aero
Regards to all. (70 plus and putting up with it !)
DRK
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: HAMPSHIRE
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Petition
you can now add your name to the Downing Street petition at :-
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SinglePilotAge
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SinglePilotAge
There are no limits
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Shrewsbury, England.
Age: 67
Posts: 505
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Only 179 signatories - I am sure we can do better than that.
Just received word on the BALPA position..........not interested. They state that the various Authorities have based their position on a safety consideration.
I challenge any Authority to produce valid evidence to support their case for discrimination.
Another thing that we could do is to write to the various Authorities and politicians that support this discriminatory position. Calling all super wordsmiths: please write a letter for all of us to cut, paste and send.
Just received word on the BALPA position..........not interested. They state that the various Authorities have based their position on a safety consideration.
I challenge any Authority to produce valid evidence to support their case for discrimination.
Another thing that we could do is to write to the various Authorities and politicians that support this discriminatory position. Calling all super wordsmiths: please write a letter for all of us to cut, paste and send.
There are no limits
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Shrewsbury, England.
Age: 67
Posts: 505
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now over 200 !!
Read the list - truly the great and the good of aviation!
Keep it going, nothing is going to happen if we slacken off the pressure.
Read the list - truly the great and the good of aviation!
Keep it going, nothing is going to happen if we slacken off the pressure.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would emplore all '20-something' pilots to sign up. The appropriate authorities may just have got their preverbial fingers out by the time you reach that landmark age, and you may benefit!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Pierre et Miquelon
Age: 68
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why is it a good thing? It just helps younger pilots get a foot in the ladder also to be forced to retire at 60, at a time when the country in general is moving towards retiring later. Then they too, will have to rely on earning more for a shorter time to be able to retire earlier than the general population.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: in the hills
Age: 68
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This comment about retiring pilots early to let others move up is total toss. Lets not stop at pilots, sack everybody at 60. Let others get on in life too.
Last edited by wheelbarrow; 17th Feb 2007 at 17:21.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: North
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know of an old knacker who for the year I was unfortunate to know, did not once climb the Ac to inspect the MRH etc simply because he couldn't! How the hell he managed his medical beats me. Ok that might be a minority, but is it?
I gave up of my own volition some years ago, there is more to life and more to do when you loose the fear...............
I gave up of my own volition some years ago, there is more to life and more to do when you loose the fear...............
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kings Caple, Ross-on-Wye.orPiccots End. Hertfordshire
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old age
Hi everyone,
Most interesting to read our controller's viewpoint, although being on the wrong side of the 'over 60' fence, I can't agree.
Surely the major consideration, especially in the pilot training role, is to be able to bring our experience to the youngsters. Just today, while doing some trial lessons for Elite Helis at Goodwood, I met a super young un. It's so good to see the new pilots moving ahead in the industry, which is something the experienced lads can help with.
The fact remains, that I still feel as fit as I have ever felt, and it is sad I can't put my experience back into helicopters. But having said that, I know of too many 60 plus customers who have popped their clogs with little warning. So putting the hat of wisdom back on, I suppose there has to be some cut off point. Anyone out there want to fly with me when I'm a hundred !!
Pass me my zimmer !
Dennis K
Most interesting to read our controller's viewpoint, although being on the wrong side of the 'over 60' fence, I can't agree.
Surely the major consideration, especially in the pilot training role, is to be able to bring our experience to the youngsters. Just today, while doing some trial lessons for Elite Helis at Goodwood, I met a super young un. It's so good to see the new pilots moving ahead in the industry, which is something the experienced lads can help with.
The fact remains, that I still feel as fit as I have ever felt, and it is sad I can't put my experience back into helicopters. But having said that, I know of too many 60 plus customers who have popped their clogs with little warning. So putting the hat of wisdom back on, I suppose there has to be some cut off point. Anyone out there want to fly with me when I'm a hundred !!
Pass me my zimmer !
Dennis K
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dennis,
If you can still pass a medical when you're 100, I'd be honoured to fly with you, and why not? You can pass on the benefit of all you know now...plus more than another 25 years of experience. Give me one good reason why anyone shouldn't want to fly with you then?
If you can still pass a medical when you're 100, I'd be honoured to fly with you, and why not? You can pass on the benefit of all you know now...plus more than another 25 years of experience. Give me one good reason why anyone shouldn't want to fly with you then?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA & UK
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At 38 and still trying to get the first break into a paid rotary flying position I've happily signed this petition. When I do eventually get that break I'd like to have at least a good twenty five years in the industry to try and pay off all my training costs (continuing health allowing). I'm afraid controller I'm not on board wth your theory that kicking the sixty year olds out will generate more jobs for us younger pups. Far from it - it seems to me the jobs are there to be had now if one can get the experience - unfortunately getting that experience is also going to take me twenty five years to pay back off.
It seems to me that the CAA is a shambles and anything we can do to shake out some of the crap has to be worth undertaking.
R1tamer
It seems to me that the CAA is a shambles and anything we can do to shake out some of the crap has to be worth undertaking.
R1tamer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kings Caple, Ross-on-Wye.orPiccots End. Hertfordshire
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The passing years
Whirly B .... Thanks for your kind comments. I shall slumber more easily tonight with dreams of female company as I break the 100 barrier. Ah ... sweet dreams !
DRK
DRK
Dont knock everyone in the CAA. The CAA medical chaps were happy to go for age 60-65 single pilot;
"The UK had proposed that single pilot operations for those aged 60 – 65 years should be acceptable, subject to a cardiovascular review to include an exercise treadmill test at age 60 and 63 years. Although accepted by the LSST(M) (Licensing Sub-Sectorial Team (Medical)), the Licensing Sectorial Team (LST) decided to postpone a decision until the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) had completed its consultation process on the maximum age for professional pilots. "
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...90&pageid=4764
"The UK had proposed that single pilot operations for those aged 60 – 65 years should be acceptable, subject to a cardiovascular review to include an exercise treadmill test at age 60 and 63 years. Although accepted by the LSST(M) (Licensing Sub-Sectorial Team (Medical)), the Licensing Sectorial Team (LST) decided to postpone a decision until the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) had completed its consultation process on the maximum age for professional pilots. "
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...90&pageid=4764
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's experience and insurance requirements that are holding younger pilots back, not vacancies.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not forgetting anything! For example, if the police requirement is for 1,500 hours, then it's 1,500 hours and has nothing to do with age.
I doubt there are many unemployed pilots with that level of hours under their belt (and if they are unemployed, it's probably because of attitude problems) so requiring pilots to retire earlier than the rest of the workforce (as is the current situation) will not help those who do not have the experience or aptitude.
Retirement ages will not affect the rotary employment marketplace. There are too many other considerations (e.g. IR as has been touched upon) for maintenance of the status quo to alter the current situation.
It has often been mooted that there is a shortage of suitably qualified and experience pilots anyway and I do know of North Sea pilots who are staying on as co-pilots past 60 because they are needed but would quite like to retire.
In order to change the employment market, there has to be changes in the way operators train pilots and insurance impositions that are laid down.
Cheers
Whirls
I doubt there are many unemployed pilots with that level of hours under their belt (and if they are unemployed, it's probably because of attitude problems) so requiring pilots to retire earlier than the rest of the workforce (as is the current situation) will not help those who do not have the experience or aptitude.
Retirement ages will not affect the rotary employment marketplace. There are too many other considerations (e.g. IR as has been touched upon) for maintenance of the status quo to alter the current situation.
It has often been mooted that there is a shortage of suitably qualified and experience pilots anyway and I do know of North Sea pilots who are staying on as co-pilots past 60 because they are needed but would quite like to retire.
In order to change the employment market, there has to be changes in the way operators train pilots and insurance impositions that are laid down.
Cheers
Whirls
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whether there are or are not jobs for younger pilots is a different issue. Concerning over-60 single pilot ops, the ONLY relevant issue is one of safety. It has never been proved that passing a 60th birthday in and of itself makes a pilot unsafe. Therefore if he/she is able to pass a medical, they should be able to continue flying. The CAA medical bods realise it, and so should everyone else.
This argument about forcing people to retire so that younger people can get jobs crops up frequently in every field of employment, not just aviation. Of course ways of getting younger people jobs would be nice. But you don't do it by kicking out those with most knowledge and experience. "Sorry mate, you've had your job long enough; maybe you want it and your employer wants to keep you, and you're better at it than I am, but I want a job and I want it now, not in ten years time"....sorry, but where's the logic in that? And as someone who became a helicopter pilot rather late in life, I don't want to give up what I've worked for to someone younger...purely on account of age. Why should I? Especially as, like Dennis K, I'm fitter than many people half my age, and plan to stay that way.
60+ pilots need to be able to continue to fly if they want to. New pilots OF ANY AGE need a toe up the ladder. But these are totally SEPARATE issues, so lets not muddy the waters by trying to mix them.
(OK, Dennis, it's a date then 
)
This argument about forcing people to retire so that younger people can get jobs crops up frequently in every field of employment, not just aviation. Of course ways of getting younger people jobs would be nice. But you don't do it by kicking out those with most knowledge and experience. "Sorry mate, you've had your job long enough; maybe you want it and your employer wants to keep you, and you're better at it than I am, but I want a job and I want it now, not in ten years time"....sorry, but where's the logic in that? And as someone who became a helicopter pilot rather late in life, I don't want to give up what I've worked for to someone younger...purely on account of age. Why should I? Especially as, like Dennis K, I'm fitter than many people half my age, and plan to stay that way.
60+ pilots need to be able to continue to fly if they want to. New pilots OF ANY AGE need a toe up the ladder. But these are totally SEPARATE issues, so lets not muddy the waters by trying to mix them.
(OK, Dennis, it's a date then
)
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: From here the view is lovely
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirlybird;
Wisdom as usual from you. There are two very seperate issues here. There is little that the onshore market can do to help with experience requirements for pilots, but the retirement issue is one where we should stand firm. The recruitment situation is becoming desperate. Insurers put huge experience requirements on pilots, and the customers are learning, sadly from past experience that they want lots of hours and IR's. The onshore industry can't afford the training costs and needs to extend retirement so that the newer pilots have the chance to build hours and gain qualifications.
There is no attempt to keep youngsters out and to keep old mates in. It is simple economics. To sponsor someone through an IR is going to cost 35-40 thousand pounds, The onshore market doesn't have that money in it's training budget, at least none of the companies I speak to have.
You are right. There is a very dangerous risk of muddying the waters here.
Wisdom as usual from you. There are two very seperate issues here. There is little that the onshore market can do to help with experience requirements for pilots, but the retirement issue is one where we should stand firm. The recruitment situation is becoming desperate. Insurers put huge experience requirements on pilots, and the customers are learning, sadly from past experience that they want lots of hours and IR's. The onshore industry can't afford the training costs and needs to extend retirement so that the newer pilots have the chance to build hours and gain qualifications.
There is no attempt to keep youngsters out and to keep old mates in. It is simple economics. To sponsor someone through an IR is going to cost 35-40 thousand pounds, The onshore market doesn't have that money in it's training budget, at least none of the companies I speak to have.
You are right. There is a very dangerous risk of muddying the waters here.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a phrase that seems to have been doing the rounds since Pontious was a pilot.......'There is a mushroom shape to the age in aviation, there are many experienced pilots about to retire and the industry is crying out for younger pilots to start moving through'.......or something very similar... the essence is there.
I have heard this for many years, people I have met along the way who were at the time wishing to break into commercial rotary aviation have quoted that or something similar to me, having heard it themselves at a training school, seminar or read it in a publication.
I think those endeavouring to get that break (R1 Tamer) sometimes find the wait frustrating, though I do get the impression that the North Sea market has been more active recently, and i guess those without any ties have found a move to this sector more straight forward. There will be those however, who through personal circumstance are not able to relocate so easily and are thus more limited with their choice.
I guess more frustrating (possibly to the employer and customer alike) is the ever widening void of experience that seems to be appearing in the onshore market as not only the hours and experience, but also ratings and IR's seem to become ever more expensive and further out of reach to the self-funded individual.
I agree with Vertical Hold, it is this gap that is becoming harder to bridge and desparatly so, is the pay and scheduling in the offshore market that good that people are comfortably off and staying there in the offshore environment?... As V Hold says, onshore companies can't afford to provide people with these ratings and this experience.
On the note of age discrimination..... it being the separate topic that it is, if you can pass your medicals, however frequently they are set, then you should be able to fly public transport, at least to bring this industry inline with many others.
I have heard this for many years, people I have met along the way who were at the time wishing to break into commercial rotary aviation have quoted that or something similar to me, having heard it themselves at a training school, seminar or read it in a publication.
I think those endeavouring to get that break (R1 Tamer) sometimes find the wait frustrating, though I do get the impression that the North Sea market has been more active recently, and i guess those without any ties have found a move to this sector more straight forward. There will be those however, who through personal circumstance are not able to relocate so easily and are thus more limited with their choice.
I guess more frustrating (possibly to the employer and customer alike) is the ever widening void of experience that seems to be appearing in the onshore market as not only the hours and experience, but also ratings and IR's seem to become ever more expensive and further out of reach to the self-funded individual.
I agree with Vertical Hold, it is this gap that is becoming harder to bridge and desparatly so, is the pay and scheduling in the offshore market that good that people are comfortably off and staying there in the offshore environment?... As V Hold says, onshore companies can't afford to provide people with these ratings and this experience.
On the note of age discrimination..... it being the separate topic that it is, if you can pass your medicals, however frequently they are set, then you should be able to fly public transport, at least to bring this industry inline with many others.
Last edited by Rushes; 20th Feb 2007 at 21:05.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi guys & girls,
Well, I’ve signed the petition and would encourage everyone to sign it. I genuinely hope that we are able to make a difference and change the legislation.
This is my take/response to some of the previous posts
Whirlybird – you’re comments at the top of the page do add a well balanced response to some of our previous posts. Very well said indeed!
Thecontroller - I don’t agree that commercial pilots should be made to stop flying at 60. The point about making way for youngsters doesn’t stack with me and I’m afraid I can’t see anything good about it.
I have the pleasure of working with inexperienced CPL’s who have self financed the majority (if not all) of their training and have made significant financial commitment to get where they are now. I also work with very experienced CPL’s who were fortunate enough to learn to fly helicopters in the forces. We need both! It is hugely important that new talent comes into the market and I’m sure we’re all agreed on that. I think that the balance more recently is very good. I enjoy seeing/hearing the more junior pilots enthusing about some of the flying that they have been doing and likewise we benefit from having the experienced pilots to pass on their wisdom.
The onshore helicopter charter market in the U.K has lost some hugely experienced pilots over the last 2/3 years and is likely to lose a few more over the next 4/5 years. It is not appropriate, in any industry, that individuals who reach 60 are simply presented with a fait a comply!
Just one more point on qualifications etc… I agree that operators are becoming increasingly keen to employ pilots with an I/R. However, this is not entirely because the operator needs you to have an I/R. If they operate single engine aircraft or even VFR twins – then there is no requirement for an I/R. You can get some very good experience flying single engine Day/VFR helicopters and then progress. If you would like to fly IFR squirrels or A109s etc – then you ought to have an I/R. There’s no benefit in sending a VFR pilot flying in an IFR aircraft of vice-versa. If the demand is now for, two engines, two pilots and IFR capability – then the supply needs to accommodate this requirement.
But you can’t kick the senior boys/girls out just because they’re now 60 +
XD
Well, I’ve signed the petition and would encourage everyone to sign it. I genuinely hope that we are able to make a difference and change the legislation.
This is my take/response to some of the previous posts
Whirlybird – you’re comments at the top of the page do add a well balanced response to some of our previous posts. Very well said indeed!
Thecontroller - I don’t agree that commercial pilots should be made to stop flying at 60. The point about making way for youngsters doesn’t stack with me and I’m afraid I can’t see anything good about it.
I have the pleasure of working with inexperienced CPL’s who have self financed the majority (if not all) of their training and have made significant financial commitment to get where they are now. I also work with very experienced CPL’s who were fortunate enough to learn to fly helicopters in the forces. We need both! It is hugely important that new talent comes into the market and I’m sure we’re all agreed on that. I think that the balance more recently is very good. I enjoy seeing/hearing the more junior pilots enthusing about some of the flying that they have been doing and likewise we benefit from having the experienced pilots to pass on their wisdom.
The onshore helicopter charter market in the U.K has lost some hugely experienced pilots over the last 2/3 years and is likely to lose a few more over the next 4/5 years. It is not appropriate, in any industry, that individuals who reach 60 are simply presented with a fait a comply!
Just one more point on qualifications etc… I agree that operators are becoming increasingly keen to employ pilots with an I/R. However, this is not entirely because the operator needs you to have an I/R. If they operate single engine aircraft or even VFR twins – then there is no requirement for an I/R. You can get some very good experience flying single engine Day/VFR helicopters and then progress. If you would like to fly IFR squirrels or A109s etc – then you ought to have an I/R. There’s no benefit in sending a VFR pilot flying in an IFR aircraft of vice-versa. If the demand is now for, two engines, two pilots and IFR capability – then the supply needs to accommodate this requirement.
But you can’t kick the senior boys/girls out just because they’re now 60 +
XD
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kings Caple, Ross-on-Wye.orPiccots End. Hertfordshire
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Age etc
Just to say to Whirlybird and Xavier Dosh .... really well said.
If only the industry could persuade the legislators to take note and update this daft age rule. I'd happily trot up to LGW every month IF I could fly PT again.
I remember .... oh so well .... dropping my last load of PAX at Silverstone in 1993, knowing it was the last occasion I'd be doing that. I think my first was in 1973 when there was no helipad or R/T ! I suppose I almost shed a tear.
But seriously, in spite of the extra years, I feel I'm as safe a pilot now as ever. Just as long as my ticker knows it too !
Dennis K
If only the industry could persuade the legislators to take note and update this daft age rule. I'd happily trot up to LGW every month IF I could fly PT again.
I remember .... oh so well .... dropping my last load of PAX at Silverstone in 1993, knowing it was the last occasion I'd be doing that. I think my first was in 1973 when there was no helipad or R/T ! I suppose I almost shed a tear.
But seriously, in spite of the extra years, I feel I'm as safe a pilot now as ever. Just as long as my ticker knows it too !
Dennis K