Age Discrimination: Fighting the CAA! (+ update)

[Whirlygig]

The only people who will suffer from this are those commercial pilots (single) in charter/some corporate/emergency services. That's it!
No-one else is affected.
That must amount to, what....300 pilots, if that.

Although I don't have any figures, I would have thought that there are more than 300 pilots in single pilot operations if you take into account fixed wing. But surely, the age 60 rule affects anyone who is under that age since none of us can say what will happen in the future and the airline pilots who thinks they're OK because they operate in a multi-crew environment might not think if, for some reason, they are made redundant and want/need to go back to single crew.

Cheers

Whirls

[Xavier Dosh]

Vfr PilotPB/2 –

Perhaps we should clarify that you can be Sikh and British!

You make a very valid point though!

I find it slightly inconsistent that employers are being told that they cannot discriminate against an individual because of their age. In addition to that, you are no longer required, or obliged, to put your D.O.B on your C.V! An yet – perfectly healthy, competent Air Crew are being told that they can no longer earn a living by doing what they have done for the last ‘x’ amount of years, whilst being told that they are going to have to work longer??

Bus/Coach drivers are not required to stop working at 60 or 65! It is until such time as their medical expires. I would suggest that the principle is the same. A bus driver can transport 50, 60 or 70 school children on his/her bus at any age – why should it be any different for a pilot?

We’re all agreed – but I wonder how long it will take change this rule?

I would suggest that 300 pilots is a conservative estimate too.

XD

[Whirlygig]

What is even more inconsistent is that the pilot who has reached age 60 and cannot pilot, say, a Jet Ranger on a pleasure flight, can be an instructor.

If someone is deemed fit enough to be an instructor, why can't they undertake PT work? The rules are nonsensical and inconsistent within themselves let alone the contradiction with the new "ageism" legislation.

Cheers

Whirls

[Xavier Dosh]

Whirls,

You're right!! Very well said!!

I know of a commercial pilot who is about to have to stop doing his day job, because he has reached 60. A couple of months ago he did his 22 rating and will now do a bit of instructing so that he is not out of the aviation environment, which he enjoys so much and of course to bring in some extra income.

I suppose we can take some comfort from knowing that the people that do make the rules up are consistently inconsistent?!

Like MBJ says - if you can pass the medical, what's the problem?!

XD

[Bertie Thruster]

........ at last the safety of pilots to age 65 for public transport operations has been ratified by ICAO and agreed in UK by the CAA..........

.......so its now the obligation of UK employers to provide the means to do this (dual controls fitted and another pilot under 60) for their age 60 pilots, otherwise the employers will fall foul of the EU age discrimination law!

[Whirlygig]

I assume that an instructor (aged, say 63) can teach a student (aged, say 67)?

Barking mad rules!

A 60 year old cannot fly a BBC cameraman on a filming flight but, if that cameraman were an employee of the operator, then he can?! So, in addition to all the other bonkers inconsistencies, the employment status of the passenger makes a difference

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlybird]

Whirls,

As I said recently on another thread, since when has aviation law had anything whatsoever to do with logic?

[Whirlygig]

I know love, but it irritates me when something isn't logical.

Just as an aside, the legal maximum age for a Company Secretary of a plc is 70; just thought you'd all like to know that!

Cheers

Whirls

[rotorfossil]

I don't have a problem with age limits if based on scientific and statistical evidence. What annoys me particularly is the inconsistencies. No you can't fly public transport after 65. Yes you can instruct newby pilots who have never been in an aircraft before (whats the difference from paying passengers?). Yes you can examine pilots for their commercial licences but you have to maintain a Class One medical with the extra expenses like stress ECG's at about £400 a throw. Yes you can examine commercial and private pilots for their recurrent LPC's (licence proficiency checks) and renewals. No you can't examine commercial pilots for their OPC's (which have the same content). Why not? Because one is under Schedule 8 (licensing) and the other comes under Schedule 9 (public transport) of the ANO.
Subside into corner muttering and sucking thum.

[cyclicmick]

Having had my 'sod off' letter from Jobsworth have signed Andy's petition. Many thanks Andy.

[DennisK]

Anno Domini

Dennis K will be rolling on to 75 next October.

I've held a class one since 1972 and a Royal Air Force medical for a few years before that. Every three years I'm off to LGW for my 'stress ECG' which they like to call 'an exercise ECG' these days. As I said to the lady last time. "I sweat more on a fast run down to my local pub!"

I'm an ex 4min 16 sec miler and anyone out there over 50 want to run alongside me over a mile tomorrow.

In 2002 I took part in the world freestyle championships and did so again in 2005. I'm legal to fly with an 'ab initio' student, but not legal to take punters to Silverstone. I plan to take part in the 2008 world champiohips and wouldn't it be great to be the oldest guy in the world to win a world championship event.

All this to really say. Hold a class one medical, (stress ecg et al) remain competent in the air and let me exercise the priviledges of my ATPL.

Dreaming.

DRK

[Whirlybird]

What is this stress ECG thingy?

[Thomas coupling]

Dennis - everyone knows you are unique old boy. A genuine 1 percentile as they say in the medical world. How can any normal pleb hold a candle to you?
May you still have many fruitful flights to come.

As you go onto say - you could be flying next to an ab initio pilot of say 17 and decide to pop your clogs on his second trip...what then perchance?

A 60 yr old these days is the 1950's equivalent of a 75 yr old (then). The system is still 20+ yrs behind.

I have received an e-mail from the CAA today telling me they have re convened a workgroup to look once more at the retirement age for single pilot commercial ops. Let's hope that this new generation CAA understands that we are now in the 21st century and things have moved on somewhat.

Whirly - to jump the gun perhaps, a stress ECG is done whilst on a running machine where the platform tilts to simulate an incline. This is the ultimate ECG test to determine that if anything is going bang, it will happen then! They have to have a trauma team on standby in case the old ticker goes into cardiac arrest! But it is a very routine test nowadays for anyone who needs to be checked out by the CAA thoroughly for ticker flicker!!!

I presume Dennis that something has come up on previous ECG's and this is their safety net?

[DennisK]

The Age thing

Thanks TC ... for the nice comments. Hope I can live up to them !! (the clogs are always waiting!)

I'm told that current policy is to stress ECG all the 'over 70s. I'm naturally happy with that cos I do want to die in my bed. Not at 1500 feet !

Second topic perhaps.

I'm about to do a piece for Loop on UK medivac helis. Any contributions on the ideal machine for the task ?

DRK

[Nigel Osborn]

I've had to do a stress ECG each year for the past 9. It takes between 9 & 12 minutes depending on what your heart is doing, hopefully still ticking! I'm glad to see that Dennis is still older than me but unfortunately he sounds a lot fitter! At least in Oz, CASA is not so tough on us oldies & believe if we are healthy enough, then we are good enough.

Coming to think of it as I did my first flying medical in Oct 1954, I'm still happy that nearly 53 years later, I can still pass it. It's just that I don't remember how!

[Whirlygig]

cos I do want to die in my bed. Not at 1500 feet !

Dying at 1500 ft shouldn't be too bad; it's the dying at 0 ft which is more of a trial!

Cheers

Whirls

[Thomas coupling]

No disrespect Dennis, but I always find it strange how some of these journals ask somebody who is not in the trade to do a piece on it??
Why don't you throw the offer out generally on here, you'd get some excellent snippets for your contribution.
By the way, in the UK they don't use the term medivac. Its either HEMS, or Air Ambulance. Medivac is the generic term.
Light twin: EC135 [flies 2 patients, reliable and maintenance is minimal.].
Medium: S76.
PS: Patients don't like aerobatics...OK

[Biggles_in_Oz]

The 'CEO of the cockpit' has an view at http://www.avweb.com/news/ceocockpit/194397-1.html

I can understand why, in the light of long previous experience that the current system can change, (ie. a captain at age 60 does not suddenly become unsafe overnight), but I can also sympathise with the feelings of a future captain who suddenly sees their promotion date extend by possibly another 5 years.

[skadi]

Thomas Coupling wrote:
By the way, in the UK they don't use the term medivac. Its either HEMS, or Air Ambulance. Medivac is the generic term.

I just know the term medevac, it comes from medical evacuation and is used in the military SAR, p. e. as C/S prefix like RESCUE xxx.

skadi

[Whirlybird]

I always find it strange how some of these journals ask somebody who is not in the trade to do a piece on it??

Magazine editors ask people they know. They ask people who they're sure can write well, who can write stuff that's interesting for the reader, and who can send the number of words requested, and send them on time. If you can do all of those things AND know your subject really well, contact any editor and tell them - they'll be delighted to hear from you.