Age Discrimination: Fighting the CAA! (+ update)
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kissmysquirrel
I suppose it depends if they think only of themselves, and think only in the short term - overlooking that they too will one day be 60.
Please forgive me if I've got the wrong person, but I have a recollection from previous posts that you're not enthusiastic about helping beginners either, because nobody helped you. (IIRC, you paid for your own qualifications from your earnings as a merchant seaman.)
If that's not you, I apologise in advance.
Surely the test of whether we help others, or fight against unfairness, isn't (or shouldn't be) whether we get some personal benefit?
FL
(Petition signed.)
It would be interesting to see how many people starting out or say in their 20's, would support the 60+yr old members to continue flying.
Please forgive me if I've got the wrong person, but I have a recollection from previous posts that you're not enthusiastic about helping beginners either, because nobody helped you. (IIRC, you paid for your own qualifications from your earnings as a merchant seaman.)
If that's not you, I apologise in advance.
Surely the test of whether we help others, or fight against unfairness, isn't (or shouldn't be) whether we get some personal benefit?
FL
(Petition signed.)
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 11th Apr 2007 at 11:40.
So wots the limit in OZ?
5.126 Commercial (helicopter) pilot: requirements if over 60 years old
(1) A commercial (helicopter) pilot who is at least 60 years old must not
fly as pilot in command of a helicopter:
(a) that is engaged in commercial operations; and
(b) that is carrying passengers.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
(1A) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
fly as pilot in command of a helicopter:
(a) that is engaged in commercial operations; and
(b) that is carrying passengers.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.
(1A) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note
For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.
(2) Subregulation (1) does not apply to a commercial (helicopter) pilot if:
(a) the pilot flies a helicopter:
(i) that is fitted with fully functioning dual controls; and
(ii) that has an operating crew that includes a qualified pilot who is not the pilot in command; or
(b) in the case of a pilot who is less than 65 years old—within the period of 1 year immediately before the day of the proposed flight the pilot has satisfactorily completed a helicopter proficiency check or a helicopter flight review; or
(c) in the case of a pilot who is at least 65 years old—within the period of 6 months immediately before the day of the proposed flight the pilot has satisfactorily completed a helicopter proficiency check or a helicopter flight review.
(3) In this regulation:
qualified pilot
means a commercial (helicopter) pilot or an air transport (helicopter) pilot who:
(a) holds a command endorsement for the helicopter; and
(b) if an activity for which a flight crew rating is required is to be carried out during the flight—holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that authorises him or her to carry out the activity as pilot in command of the helicopter; and
(c) either:
(i) is less than 60 years old; or
(a) holds a command endorsement for the helicopter; and
(b) if an activity for which a flight crew rating is required is to be carried out during the flight—holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that authorises him or her to carry out the activity as pilot in command of the helicopter; and
(c) either:
(i) is less than 60 years old; or
(ii) satisfies the requirements of paragraph (2) (b) or (c).
Just further to our CAR's, the interpretation put on our "over 60" rule is that there is no restriction when flying what we refer to as "aerial work" (filming, photography, fire fighting, sling loads, etc) as they do not carry "passengers". All on board must be essential to the operation, and therefore crew, not pax.
For passenger carrying ops, ie Charter, as long as you have an annual proficiency test 60 - 65, or a six monthly proficiency test once past 65, you can legally fly pax without a sub 60 co-pilot. Even Nigel can keep flying
For passenger carrying ops, ie Charter, as long as you have an annual proficiency test 60 - 65, or a six monthly proficiency test once past 65, you can legally fly pax without a sub 60 co-pilot. Even Nigel can keep flying
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Flying Lawyer, I am one of the first people to help out those begining in this industry. I have regularly gone out of my way in the past to help ppl's and newbie cpl's gain hours/jobs etc. I have even managed to help a regular contributor on Rotorheads to gain employment not too long ago. I didn't have to do this but I do it because if I feel someone isn't taking the p%%s, and they have a love for flying, then I can give something back. I know my previous posts may have indicated that my personality was 'anti' everything and everyone, but it is only really an online persona (i think).
As for the 60 year limit on commercial flying, well I agree that it's discrimination when the government want people to work longer in life, but only certain sectors it would seem.
It just isn't fair to have one rule for one and not for all. Don't get me wrong, I was only trying to create discussion, not put people down for wanting to continue flying. On the contrary. I hope to fly for as long as I possibly can.
ps, I hope Heliport can see i'm keeping my promise and behaving!
As for the 60 year limit on commercial flying, well I agree that it's discrimination when the government want people to work longer in life, but only certain sectors it would seem.
It just isn't fair to have one rule for one and not for all. Don't get me wrong, I was only trying to create discussion, not put people down for wanting to continue flying. On the contrary. I hope to fly for as long as I possibly can.
ps, I hope Heliport can see i'm keeping my promise and behaving!
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Uncle Ian
I have tonight been informed that my long awaited audience with my MP is tomorrow (Sat) evening. (After complaining about the wait he is coming to my house!). Is there any other point, other than the obvious, that you might like me to put to him on our collective (excuse the pun) behalf.
Regards and keep up the good work albeit a tad late for me I think
Mick
PS: See you at AOM's next golf day!
I have tonight been informed that my long awaited audience with my MP is tomorrow (Sat) evening. (After complaining about the wait he is coming to my house!). Is there any other point, other than the obvious, that you might like me to put to him on our collective (excuse the pun) behalf.
Regards and keep up the good work albeit a tad late for me I think
Mick
PS: See you at AOM's next golf day!
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Australian CARs:
Thanks John. Looks like there's hope for the likes of Nigel and me yet...
Kissmysquirrel, I realise you're all heart really. Fact is, unless a helicopter pilot is born with a silver spoon in his mouth, he's unlikey to have access to a huge pension (index-linked). Our companies are never stable and their assets, profits and pension funds are easy prey to asset strippers. We ourselves are often not the best of money managers either (honourable exceptions, Whirly).. We usually NEED to fly, and if younger pilots can't get a command where they are, they can go elsewhere can't they? What's the point of an ATPL/IR if you won't pack your bags and move on?
Furthermore, not only do we old farts still like our flying but we're just as good at it as those half our age. Our experience is greatly enhanced (if not enriched) by flying in different parts of the world in totally different roles in our constant search for hire and reward. So long as we can pass our base checks and medicals we can still contribute to the profession.
'nuff ranting. Good luck Uncle Ian.
Thanks John. Looks like there's hope for the likes of Nigel and me yet...
Kissmysquirrel, I realise you're all heart really. Fact is, unless a helicopter pilot is born with a silver spoon in his mouth, he's unlikey to have access to a huge pension (index-linked). Our companies are never stable and their assets, profits and pension funds are easy prey to asset strippers. We ourselves are often not the best of money managers either (honourable exceptions, Whirly).. We usually NEED to fly, and if younger pilots can't get a command where they are, they can go elsewhere can't they? What's the point of an ATPL/IR if you won't pack your bags and move on?
Furthermore, not only do we old farts still like our flying but we're just as good at it as those half our age. Our experience is greatly enhanced (if not enriched) by flying in different parts of the world in totally different roles in our constant search for hire and reward. So long as we can pass our base checks and medicals we can still contribute to the profession.
'nuff ranting. Good luck Uncle Ian.
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Blimey KMS............
Bromide in the water in your neck of the woods
This new 'mellow' must be helping your blood pressure!
Heliport - what are the odds on KMS being back on old form by Xmas. Thats got to be worth a flutter and better odds then my Grand National efforts earlier
Bromide in the water in your neck of the woods
This new 'mellow' must be helping your blood pressure!
Heliport - what are the odds on KMS being back on old form by Xmas. Thats got to be worth a flutter and better odds then my Grand National efforts earlier
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Old age & COFs
Hi all you fellow OAPs.
Another pennorth for the pot.
Last week I duly visited LGW for my 'Stress ECG' which is apparently now to be known as an 'Exercise ECG'
The kindly reception doctor took me gently through the briefing, by telling me that once over 60, the average male has a 1% chance of a heart attack every year, hence the ECG requirement. However, he probably raised my blood pressure a tad, by also telling me that if I tested 'positive' (didn't think I was up for an HIV check !) I'd be leaving the office without a licence.
But following a failure, we can then opt for a more rigorous test involving blood colour injections and some radioactive treatment testing. Apparently this higher test standard is a more accurate indication of forthcoming heart trouble. But it will cost you a whisker under a grand sterling.
Being fairly fit, I was delighted to waltz through the standard nine minutes. and left with my ticket (and ticker!) still intact. But the odd thing is I'm now cleared for another four years ! So I ask myself what happened to the 1% per annum possibility.
Anyway, I'd like to re-affirm my financial offer to Ian, and bless you Ian for the effort on behalf of we COFs and the old uns in our industry.
PS Any of the HEMS confined area picture situations produced by an 'over sixty' ?
Take care all,
Dennis Kenyon.
Another pennorth for the pot.
Last week I duly visited LGW for my 'Stress ECG' which is apparently now to be known as an 'Exercise ECG'
The kindly reception doctor took me gently through the briefing, by telling me that once over 60, the average male has a 1% chance of a heart attack every year, hence the ECG requirement. However, he probably raised my blood pressure a tad, by also telling me that if I tested 'positive' (didn't think I was up for an HIV check !) I'd be leaving the office without a licence.
But following a failure, we can then opt for a more rigorous test involving blood colour injections and some radioactive treatment testing. Apparently this higher test standard is a more accurate indication of forthcoming heart trouble. But it will cost you a whisker under a grand sterling.
Being fairly fit, I was delighted to waltz through the standard nine minutes. and left with my ticket (and ticker!) still intact. But the odd thing is I'm now cleared for another four years ! So I ask myself what happened to the 1% per annum possibility.
Anyway, I'd like to re-affirm my financial offer to Ian, and bless you Ian for the effort on behalf of we COFs and the old uns in our industry.
PS Any of the HEMS confined area picture situations produced by an 'over sixty' ?
Take care all,
Dennis Kenyon.
There are no limits
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Dennis,
The picture situations are unlikely in England as the upper age limit for HEMS pilots is 60. Having said that, as Virgin HEMS flies with two pilots (IIRC) then they will be able to fly above and beyond this limit.
The picture situations are unlikely in England as the upper age limit for HEMS pilots is 60. Having said that, as Virgin HEMS flies with two pilots (IIRC) then they will be able to fly above and beyond this limit.
Hovering AND talking
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I'm sure Uncle Ian won't mind me saying this (especially as it went out live on National TV!) but today was his 60th birthday and therefore, the first day on which he cannot fly single pilot PT for remuneration.
So, Happy Birthday Ian. 
But this is the point where things should start moving.
Cheers
Whirls
So, Happy Birthday Ian.
But this is the point where things should start moving.
Cheers
Whirls
PS Any of the HEMS confined area picture situations produced by an 'over sixty' ?
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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Uncle Ian;
Happy birthday for the other day. Thought you did bloody well on the telly and I'm delighted your tourettes stayed under control!!!!!!!!
VH
Happy birthday for the other day. Thought you did bloody well on the telly and I'm delighted your tourettes stayed under control!!!!!!!!
VH
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Belated Happy Birthday (and good luck with the case) Uncle Ian!
I'm a 20something PPL(H) and although I have no current plans to go commercial, I may want the option in the future and if I do, I want to be able to fly so long as I can pass a medical and flight tests, regardless of age. So, I've joined the 411 who have so far signed the petition at the time of writing.
The recent death of Neville Duke (aged 85, who reportedly collapsed just after landing as he left his aircraft and died some hours later) reminded me of an airline pilot I know of, who died suddenly just before a flight, not long after a medical, and it made me think...
A medical only really represents your state of health at the time it's done. So what's the decreasing interval between medicals with age based on, and how valid is the whole thing? Is there enough scientific understanding of potential indicators, or is it that people are just statistically more likely to die the older they get?
I'm a 20something PPL(H) and although I have no current plans to go commercial, I may want the option in the future and if I do, I want to be able to fly so long as I can pass a medical and flight tests, regardless of age. So, I've joined the 411 who have so far signed the petition at the time of writing.
The recent death of Neville Duke (aged 85, who reportedly collapsed just after landing as he left his aircraft and died some hours later) reminded me of an airline pilot I know of, who died suddenly just before a flight, not long after a medical, and it made me think...
A medical only really represents your state of health at the time it's done. So what's the decreasing interval between medicals with age based on, and how valid is the whole thing? Is there enough scientific understanding of potential indicators, or is it that people are just statistically more likely to die the older they get?
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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I have just signed the petiotion.
I have not studied every post so apologies if the point has been made before but it has to be easier to dump a chopper on the surface at VERY short notice than say a fixed wing GA type let alone a FW passenger transport type certificated for single crew.
I have not studied every post so apologies if the point has been made before but it has to be easier to dump a chopper on the surface at VERY short notice than say a fixed wing GA type let alone a FW passenger transport type certificated for single crew.