Conversion from FAA to JAA coming to an end?

[mortennb]

After all the debates I have seen regarding this issue. I recently found some information thats pretty nice to see for those of us who works in the US but are thinking about working in Europe.

Here are the main text:

1.
In JAR regulations, it is opened for a bridging system between other civil aviation authourities outside the JAA. It is being developed a new bridging system between FAA and JAA right now, but they have not yet agreed on what it will take to get the FAA licenses approved under JAA. But it is said that they will agree on this before summer 2008.
Conversion of licenses can than be one of more solutions that again will be started between FAA and JAA.

2.
The JAA countries have in an internal research discovered that more than 70% of todays pilots in Europe have a background from USA.
JAA have realised that the pilots educated in the US in some way have to be "approved" to avoid that the whole market won't colapse.
Many of the big airliners have their own schools in the US where they educate their own pilots. This airlines have big influense on the decisons made in JAA, and they have said in clear text that the US education will be number 1 compared to EU, and that European education in no way can compare with this in the near future. Espesially thinking about price for the education.

One of the Scandinavian countries CAA are now validating all of your licenses except CFI/II every year untill the new bridging system between FAA and JAA is set.

Opinions?

[mortennb]

Originally Posted by thecontroller

there is no way on earth this will happen. it would overnight destroy every flight training school in the UK, including the groundschool providers.

can you see the CAA letting anyone will an FAA licence automatically get a JAA licence? not in a million years.

I don't think they will just give you the JAA license. But probably go back to something like the old CAA conversion was.
1 airlaw exam + 1 practical flight

[mortennb]

Originally Posted by thecontroller

i sincerely hope this doesnt happen. the UK market would be flooded with pilot and wages would be even lower and jobs even scarcer.

I can prefectly understand the impact this might have for schools in the UK as well as other JAA countires.

But then on the other hand, I am glad for me and other european pilots flying outside JAA , since I dont have to come up with another 35k to get my licenses..

[Winnie]

Should really keep this to myself but...

In the US, lots of europeans and others come over to get their licenses, spend LOTS of money, live there for two years, doing jobs that noone else wants to do, then goes home. What is the problem with that?

It's just like the problem with those guys sneaking across the border...
There is no other oportunity for anybody. If you are not american, nobody will hire you for anything BUT instruction.

You would be coming to europe for what? like you said there are no lowtimer jobs there.

All the licenses are based in some way on ICAO, so what would be the problem of changing it to a worldwide system, at least within ICAO.

How much you paid is irellevant, as is whether you did 14 exams or 3. Can you fly to the standard required? Do you know the relevant regs? If so keep on trucking.

I hold European (Norwegian CAA) licenses and US and Canadian. Had to convert to canadian licenses, which was a piece of cake. Converting to Norwegian, a LOOONG waste of time, effort, money and so on, but did anything change? No, the air was actually the same.

I think Europe should be looking more towards a licensing system like the ones in the US/Canada, as these are more realistic towrds the job we do, FLY aircraft.

My opinion.

[mortennb]

Originally Posted by Um... lifting...

mortennb- Looking at it from your angle, consider this too. How many Americans do you know of in Europe with low-time flying jobs as compared to the other way around? I couldn't say, but I expect there are more Europeans doing flight instruction in the US than the other way around. The US itself may be pressuring the JAA to reduce its restrictions to make it easier for Europeans and Americans both to train and work in their respective homes.

Hey..

I want to give my first answer to you controller.
Yes, I did a research before I chose to take this education. But I can now say that as a guy with 0 experience for aviation. It's hard to understad what you have to go through to get JAA licenses. You read that I have to do a distance learning course with 14 exams in each topic. And think, ok.. I can do that.
But what you don't think about is the cost and time it takes to do it after 2 years away. Than you would like to start building more experience and pay off my loan.
And even though I want to continue learning, after full education in the US, and working your ass of as a CFII for enough money to barely live on, I would like to take a step up when I have reached my magical 1000.

I know that if I had a permanet work visa in the US. I would probably get a job within 2 weeks doing the same job as most people in Europe. But instead I need to come up with more money, study more and probably not fly for a year again. Doesnt sound fun.

There is 2 options you have to choose from when taking this education.

1. Do you want to get the education cheaper and have a great chance of getting a job as a flight instructor building your own experience and knowledge up. As well as getting allot of connections all over the world

or

2. Do you want to take the whole education in Europe. Struggeling to get a job so you can build time. As well as having a loan almost twice the size as if you took it in US?

Most people go for number 1.

And lifting.

I have never heard of anyone going the other way. Witch is pretty logical.

[HillerBee]

Having done the JAA exams etc, this doesn't make personally very happy. But in way it might be better. It all depends on how the bridging exams are going to be like. There is quite a difference in approach between Europe and the US, Canada, Australia. The best thing would be a universal license for the whole world. Wait a minute wasn't that where ICAO was for!?

Controller
Unfortunately there is NO flight training industry anymore in the UK. Oxford has ceased CPL training and I heard Cabair quit as well. Name me some schools that still do ab-initio CPL(H) training. I personally consider this a very, very serious.

The market won't be flooded with American pilots, they need work permits like we need them for the US. There is a pilot shortage in the US and it's most unlikely that we will have a lot of Americans over here. European going over to the US to train professionaly are not that many as well. I know HAI is limited to 80 J-1 visa a year and Hillsboro doesn't get that many by far. So that means for all of Europe there might be 120 CPL's coming back every year. The 40 or so from Hillsboro are all German/Austrian. So it's not large numbers we're talking about.

If the JAA system would change a bit, in the direction of the FAA system, maybe we could start training more ab-initio CPL's in this country.

[Bravo73]

Originally Posted by thecontroller

london helicopters, heli-air, helicopter services, aeromega, biggin hill, ALL do CPL(H) training

They do indeed. But they offer the modular CPL(H) course.

Oxford and (apparently ) Cabair were the only providers of ab-initio integrated CPL(H) training.

[HillerBee]

Controller you are a US trained pilot yourself.

Originally Posted by thecontroller

i sincerely hope this doesnt happen. the UK market would be flooded with pilot and wages would be even lower and jobs even scarcer.

A thread you started in 2005

Originally Posted by thecontroller

too many new pilots???
I am currently at one of the large USA schools and there seems to be tons of students all wanting to be CFIs. Every 25 year old Norwegian seems to want to be a pilot.

Are there enough instructor jobs for all these people???

I know the US training market is big, but this school is producing 5-10 CFIs a month.

I also came across you're time logging question.!!

[Darren999]

Controller- I started off training in the UK due to weather and other constrants I travelled to the US to finish all my training. I did however flying privately in the UK. Once I obtained my CFI I started to teach in the US, I was lucky to be able to obtain a green card. I worked as a CFI building time, like most of us do, I then through a lot of study and hard work I achived my ATP.
I now fly the AW139. I would like sometime to return to the UK to be closer to my family, however I do not see why I should study for a further 14 exams to do the work in the UK I do here. On your post you state that pilots get there licences cheaper, and easier. I can quite assure you I didn't find the studying or the flight tests easier. Are you thinking that the quaility of training is not up to par with the JAA? Am I not as good as if I was trained under JAA....
If the rules changed somewhat I would consider returning to the UK. As posted above there would not be a rush of pilots back to the UK. Just my thoughts..

[B Sousa]

This little Squabble has been going on as long as PPrune.
I sympathize with those who have to go through training in the UK, Its ridiculously expensive and the written portion appears to be well above and beyond anything that you may need in an entire career. (Im sure I will take flak for that).
One of the companies I work for here in the states runs through a lot of non-US Pilots. It works for them and its cheap labor. Individual comes over from Europe on a VISA and after training somewhere, they have some time legally to gain some experience on turbines. Company hires them cheap and they burn up thier Visa, going home to Europe with a few hundred hours in the A-Star and or the EC.
Good for them, not good for those in the US who are starting off, but Helicopter Pilots are known for working cheap.

[IHL]

As a side bar:

As of December 1 , thereis a bilateral agreement between Canada and the U.S.A .

To convert a Canadian ATPL-A to an FAA ATPL-A only requires writing a diferences exam and having an FAA medical, the same applies for the FAA to Canadian conversion.

However : It only applies to fixed wing. In Canada a type rating is required for each helicopter type and in order to be issued an ATPL-H a check ride must be done on an aircraft requireing 2 crew as per the aircraft AFM.

But it is progress.

Whether you fly an ILS approach in the UK, CANADA or Italy; whether you do an auto in Norway, Sweden, or Argentina : The procedures are identical, I simple air regs exam ( in the perfect world) should be all that is required.

[Darren999]

IHL- Very good point, here here, the sooner the better

[mortennb]

Originally Posted by Darren999

IHL- Very good point, here here, the sooner the better

I like the fact that even someone who has done the JAA ATPL theory can see beyond what they had to go through, and look forward instead.

But isn't it pretty interesting to see that even some CAA countires in Europe thinks the JAA Requierments are to much?
With this I mean that I know one place where they validate your licenses all the time untill the new bridging system is up and ready.

After talking to them over the phone, I get a clear idea that they think JAA requierments are ridiculous, and this is how they solve it.

[HillerBee]

I know several people at several CAA's who share that opinion as well. The UK CAA has been very influential in the JAA.

[Ioan]

and so far this hasn't gone near the fact that I've spent 5 months sat in a classroom learning all about the 737, transatlantic navigation, fixed wing performance, etc - all to fly a helicopter.
The sooner they bring in a relevant ATPL(H) theory syllabus the better too, even if it is over the top!

[Lightning_Boy]

Mortennb,

Don't take this the wrong way but.......You have spent almost a year complaining about the JAA system. I agree with you, the majority of the course is of no use to helicopter pilots and yes I also agree, there should be an easier way to convert from an ICAO licence. You left the states long before I did, but in that time I have managed to complete the ATPL exams, get a ME IR and land a job. I'm not one of these people who say "I've had to do it, so should you" but unfortunatley, that's how the system is. We all knew these exams would be here on our return, complaining isn't going to make them go away. It depends how badly you want it, the controller is known for the odd winge granted but he has worked his ar$e off over the past few months just to get the exams done, just like the rest of us.
A lot of people try and take the easy route, complain and convince themselves the regulations will be changed in their favour (I was one of them) but at the end of the day, if thats what your waiting for, you could be a long time sat on the terra firma.
Get your head down, jump through the hoops and when the licence does turn up, you'll feel good about the hard work you have put in.

Please dont take this as a personal insult to you (apologies if it sounds that way) its just advise to get you back up in the air and flying in the country you really want to fly in, home.

Hope it all goes well for you

LB

[mortennb]

Originally Posted by Lightning_Boy

Mortennb,

Don't take this the wrong way but.......You have spent almost a year complaining about the JAA system. I agree with you, the majority of the course is of no use to helicopter pilots and yes I also agree, there should be an easier way to convert from an ICAO licence. You left the states long before I did, but in that time I have managed to complete the ATPL exams, get a ME IR and land a job. I'm not one of these people who say "I've had to do it, so should you" but unfortunatley, that's how the system is. We all knew these exams would be here on our return, complaining isn't going to make them go away. It depends how badly you want it, the controller is known for the odd winge granted but he has worked his ar$e off over the past few months just to get the exams done, just like the rest of us.
A lot of people try and take the easy route, complain and convince themselves the regulations will be changed in their favour (I was one of them) but at the end of the day, if thats what your waiting for, you could be a long time sat on the terra firma.
Get your head down, jump through the hoops and when the licence does turn up, you'll feel good about the hard work you have put in.

Please dont take this as a personal insult to you (apologies if it sounds that way) its just advise to get you back up in the air and flying in the country you really want to fly in, home.

Hope it all goes well for you

LB

I know what you mean LB. And if it comes to it, I will bite the dust. But the problem isn't to just start the "ATPL course". It costs money. As you probably know. And as you also probably know, most schools advertise with a lower price than what you actually will spend.. So you want to give me 35k for my JAA ATP and IR?

And I am not sure if your think I am in Europe sitting on my ass, I am still in the US with a visa valid untill October 2007. So I am not going home yet. And it doesnt matter where I fly. I would like to fly "home", but working 2/2 shift somewhere else in the world wouldnt really bother me.

And the conversion might change it might not. We will see.

[luggage90]

Explanations

Originally Posted by mortennb

After all the debates I have seen regarding this issue. I recently found some information thats pretty nice to see for those of us who works in the US but are thinking about working in Europe.

Here are the main text:

1.
In JAR regulations, it is opened for a bridging system between other civil aviation authourities outside the JAA. It is being developed a new bridging system between FAA and JAA right now, but they have not yet agreed on what it will take to get the FAA licenses approved under JAA. But it is said that they will agree on this before summer 2008.
Conversion of licenses can than be one of more solutions that again will be started between FAA and JAA.

2.
The JAA countries have in an internal research discovered that more than 70% of todays pilots in Europe have a background from USA.
JAA have realised that the pilots educated in the US in some way have to be "approved" to avoid that the whole market won't colapse.
Many of the big airliners have their own schools in the US where they educate their own pilots. This airlines have big influense on the decisons made in JAA, and they have said in clear text that the US education will be number 1 compared to EU, and that European education in no way can compare with this in the near future. Espesially thinking about price for the education.

One of the Scandinavian countries CAA are now validating all of your licenses except CFI/II every year untill the new bridging system between FAA and JAA is set.

Opinions?

1) Could you be mor clear in what you are saying : "I recently found some information " ? Where does the text you are writing come from?

2)When you are saying "One of the Scandinavian countries CAA are now validating all of your licenses", could you be more precise?

Thanks

[mortennb]

Originally Posted by luggage90

1) Could you be mor clear in what you are saying : "I recently found some information " ? Where does the text you are writing come from?

2)When you are saying "One of the Scandinavian countries CAA are now validating all of your licenses", could you be more precise?

Thanks

1. It's posted on one of the schools witch currently do the ATPL conversion. It's not in English, so there is no point in refering it.

2. All countries under JAA can validate your license. But some require hours and help from an employer. Sweden only require to see your ICAO license and logbook.

[paco]

Ioan - there is a specific helicopter course on its way, but it may be a little late for you (Easter 2007). It will be advertised on pprune in due course

phil