What are the job prospects for new CPLs? (MERGED)
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@thewave, you might be right regarding these guys being able to fly.
But seriously... not able to use a spellcheck? okay, let someone else do it or check it! They are applying for a job to fly multi million $ machines, so the least a Chief Pilot can except is some effort put into the application!
For the spelling police here on the forum: I AM NOT APPLYING FOR A JOB HERE!
Beside this, a agree with you on the other part!
But seriously... not able to use a spellcheck? okay, let someone else do it or check it! They are applying for a job to fly multi million $ machines, so the least a Chief Pilot can except is some effort put into the application!
For the spelling police here on the forum: I AM NOT APPLYING FOR A JOB HERE!
Beside this, a agree with you on the other part!
Last edited by Stallion85; 16th Jun 2013 at 04:49.
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Stallion85
I agree with you about making the effort. If we're to apply for a job I would at least ask my daughter or some other literate person to check my application.
Although I'd probably get caught out later !
A further point I'd like to make about the low houred pilot is that operators like Bond, Bristow and CHC give pilots a chance. I'm sure that the machines they use are worth a few bob.
Although I'd probably get caught out later !
A further point I'd like to make about the low houred pilot is that operators like Bond, Bristow and CHC give pilots a chance. I'm sure that the machines they use are worth a few bob.
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Theweave;
Ignoring your somewhat patronising first sentence, surely a sign of self-discipline and care is presenting a C.V that is neat, orderly with correct spelling and punctuation, dashing something off carelessly and e-mailing it to a bunch of blokes who do the hiring gives a very poor first impression. Its' odd how often we look through the C.V file and someone will comment on a sloppy approach
I would love to have co-pilots. I started as one, I learned so much from the guys I flew with, but I don't know anybody in corporate/charter at the moment who can afford them. It is rare in this market to have a pilot flying just one type, everybody has to be able go from P2 on a 155 this morning to P1 on a 109 this afternoon. Training costs are ever increasing, customer requirements are tougher and the experience gap just gets worse.
Another factor well outside our control are the key man insurers. These people insure the lives of our customers taking into account what will happen to their businesses should we cock up completely. They do their research and come up with their numbers, if a senior director of a FTSE 100 company wants to fly on a helicopter you will often find the aircraft and pilot experience requirements are written into his company's key man policy. One (US) bank we fly for audits our maintenance, training and pilot experience and even asks for copies of log books and FTLs before we fly. Two crew is becoming more popular, especially since January 16th, but the vicious circle closes because I don't have a budget for pilots who can't fly multiple types either seat.
There are jobs out there and pilots in the rotary world have always been prepared to move for employment but, the experience levels asked for now (except for P2 off-shore) are the highest I've ever seen in nearly 30 years. As the CP I answer to a board of directors and have a budget for pilots. To my mind some of that budget could go on two co-pilots, but for that I can get one and a third P1s who can just slot straight into place rather than developing the skills of a couple of youngsters and closing the experience gap for the future, and trust me that really hacks me off.
SND
Ignoring your somewhat patronising first sentence, surely a sign of self-discipline and care is presenting a C.V that is neat, orderly with correct spelling and punctuation, dashing something off carelessly and e-mailing it to a bunch of blokes who do the hiring gives a very poor first impression. Its' odd how often we look through the C.V file and someone will comment on a sloppy approach
I would love to have co-pilots. I started as one, I learned so much from the guys I flew with, but I don't know anybody in corporate/charter at the moment who can afford them. It is rare in this market to have a pilot flying just one type, everybody has to be able go from P2 on a 155 this morning to P1 on a 109 this afternoon. Training costs are ever increasing, customer requirements are tougher and the experience gap just gets worse.
Another factor well outside our control are the key man insurers. These people insure the lives of our customers taking into account what will happen to their businesses should we cock up completely. They do their research and come up with their numbers, if a senior director of a FTSE 100 company wants to fly on a helicopter you will often find the aircraft and pilot experience requirements are written into his company's key man policy. One (US) bank we fly for audits our maintenance, training and pilot experience and even asks for copies of log books and FTLs before we fly. Two crew is becoming more popular, especially since January 16th, but the vicious circle closes because I don't have a budget for pilots who can't fly multiple types either seat.
There are jobs out there and pilots in the rotary world have always been prepared to move for employment but, the experience levels asked for now (except for P2 off-shore) are the highest I've ever seen in nearly 30 years. As the CP I answer to a board of directors and have a budget for pilots. To my mind some of that budget could go on two co-pilots, but for that I can get one and a third P1s who can just slot straight into place rather than developing the skills of a couple of youngsters and closing the experience gap for the future, and trust me that really hacks me off.
SND
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@ Stallion 85
Look again,- the weave
NO, HE'D expect
-Just as well!
I agree?
OK, It's only a Forum, but Sir Niall , for one, has stated that he's one of the hirers and firers you should be making an effort to impress.....you never know when you'll face him across an interview table!
ALL you" English as a first language" bods could take a leaf out of our foreign members' books. They may get the sentence structure wrong, odd syntax, and very occasionally , wrong spelling,- but usually they get the message right and it's coherent.
@ Sir Niall, Sounds like you are storing up big problems for the future, meanwhile, there are hundreds of impoverished Rotary "school" graduates who cannot get a job, and are highly unlikely to be able to afford to work for the pitiful wages that would, maybe , swing them a position.....is this the Ryanair -Effect?
@thewave,
so the least a Chief Pilot can except
I AM NOT APPLYING FOR A JOB HERE!
Beside this, a agree with you
OK, It's only a Forum, but Sir Niall , for one, has stated that he's one of the hirers and firers you should be making an effort to impress.....you never know when you'll face him across an interview table!
ALL you" English as a first language" bods could take a leaf out of our foreign members' books. They may get the sentence structure wrong, odd syntax, and very occasionally , wrong spelling,- but usually they get the message right and it's coherent.
@ Sir Niall, Sounds like you are storing up big problems for the future, meanwhile, there are hundreds of impoverished Rotary "school" graduates who cannot get a job, and are highly unlikely to be able to afford to work for the pitiful wages that would, maybe , swing them a position.....is this the Ryanair -Effect?
It can be a ruthless business...
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Head above the parapet!
I'm Chief Pilot and Head of Ops for a good size corporate/charter operator. I get a dozen or so C.Vs a week, what never ceases to astound me is how few people e-mail their C.V and don't run it through a spell check first. Come on guys how can I take you seriously if you send me something a twelve year old would send?
Secondly, do some research, I reply to every e-mailed C.V. What is the point of sending me your C.V if you don't have a JAR license or I.R? There is a huge recession going on and while I will type rate the right people I will bond them, I don't have a budget for I.Rs and a simple glance at our company website should give you a clue that what I really need is people with some miles under their belts and solid time on their I.Rs. With 350 hours on a Robbo and 206 I'm not going to let you loose with one of my IFR twins and precious customers. I had one young man walk in off the street, C.V in hand who got mighty aggressive when I told him I would keep his C.V but couldn't hire him because our MINIMUM requirement is 2 500 hours with current I.R.
EASA is making the career development of young pilots harder, and the key man insurers of the customers are making it almost impossible when they are the ones with the 2 500 hour/IFR rule. As for co-pilots, I wish I could. I need every pilot to be able to go either seat in more than one type, we are getting more and more enquiries for two crew, but I simply can't afford co-pilots.
I really don't think a career is possible in rotary aviation any more, just a succession of jobs, some better than others. The net result is the experienced guys are getting far more experience than they need, the new guys none, and the experience gap is now not such a gap, more a chasm.
When anyone asks me these days "fixed or rotary?" I always say fixed. at least there's some security in planks.
SND
I'm Chief Pilot and Head of Ops for a good size corporate/charter operator. I get a dozen or so C.Vs a week, what never ceases to astound me is how few people e-mail their C.V and don't run it through a spell check first. Come on guys how can I take you seriously if you send me something a twelve year old would send?
Secondly, do some research, I reply to every e-mailed C.V. What is the point of sending me your C.V if you don't have a JAR license or I.R? There is a huge recession going on and while I will type rate the right people I will bond them, I don't have a budget for I.Rs and a simple glance at our company website should give you a clue that what I really need is people with some miles under their belts and solid time on their I.Rs. With 350 hours on a Robbo and 206 I'm not going to let you loose with one of my IFR twins and precious customers. I had one young man walk in off the street, C.V in hand who got mighty aggressive when I told him I would keep his C.V but couldn't hire him because our MINIMUM requirement is 2 500 hours with current I.R.
EASA is making the career development of young pilots harder, and the key man insurers of the customers are making it almost impossible when they are the ones with the 2 500 hour/IFR rule. As for co-pilots, I wish I could. I need every pilot to be able to go either seat in more than one type, we are getting more and more enquiries for two crew, but I simply can't afford co-pilots.
I really don't think a career is possible in rotary aviation any more, just a succession of jobs, some better than others. The net result is the experienced guys are getting far more experience than they need, the new guys none, and the experience gap is now not such a gap, more a chasm.
When anyone asks me these days "fixed or rotary?" I always say fixed. at least there's some security in planks.
SND
This means there will be a huge gap and no pilots to fly, right?
I have seen this principle in Dutch Airforce, they keep on hiring even if they don't have at this moment spots available.
If they don't do it they will create a big gap in the pilots pool when the majority goes to retirement.
Not only in the aviation but also DSM a chemical company is on the edge of going bankrupt because in 3 a 4 years 60% will have to retire.
So how long will it take before the helicopter world takes a hit like this?
Same as how long will it take that key man insurers of the customers will demand requirements nobody can deliver any more?
It looks like the rotary world is in a downward spin flight to the ground.
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But what will happen in a few year's if all the experienced guys are going on retirement?
This means there will be a huge gap and no pilots to fly, right?
This means there will be a huge gap and no pilots to fly, right?
They in turn will be replaced by low-time CPLs who will gain experience and when able to will take a career change etc...
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OK, It's only a Forum, but Sir Niall , for one, has stated that he's one of the hirers and firers you should be making an effort to impress.....you never know when you'll face him across an interview table!
On the other hand... I might be wrong but I doubt a CP is looking in forums to check out prospective employees. Maybe if I would tell him my name here... But if he does... just read on!
ALL you" English as a first language" bods could take a leaf out of our foreign members' books. They may get the sentence structure wrong, odd syntax, and very occasionally , wrong spelling,- but usually they get the message right and it's coherent.
And sorry again for being sloppy but I was in a rush. (I know it`s a lame excuse
)However, if you know your spelling is not 100% you should use the spellcheck. And if your "limitations of the English language" are deeper than this, get some help with it. (Thats what I do, but not for a posting on a forum
)
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SND:
LOL, you should know better, you have enough posts under your belt :-) There is no tolerance for common sense or reality on PPRuNe!
Weave:
Perhaps, but they should know that a CV is how they present themselves to a prospective employer, one that we assume they would like to impress. Is sloppiness/laziness really what they want to present? When they arrive for the face-to-face interview should they be expected to dress the part, or is baggy sweats and flip flops sufficient?
D.Diver:
*my bold added* Militaries can afford to do this because they are, by definition, non-profit agencies. They are concerned with capability not, as long as they are within budget, making money.
The owners/boards/accountants that dictate the policy of adding or not adding unnecessary crew (in this case copilots but it applies to apprentice maintainers as well) to the budget are concerned with immediate profitability not the health of the aviation industry in 5 or 10 years. I've tried to argue the value of doing what you suggest and it is not easy. When you do succeed then one of these guys who gets the break will quit and run to the competition with his newly padded CV full of shiny new ratings and hours. Thus endeth the program....
Nothing that is happening now is new. I would argue that the fixed wing side is worse but it's all a matter of perspective. The 'industry' has survived this far and will continue. As operators become unable to fill the crew seats, then solutions will be found:
...bankruptcy or liquidation
...internally funded mentoring (higher rates or lower profit)
...higher wages to compete for talent
...customers look to other services
...or...all/none of the above???
But the world won't end. If one wants to succeed in it, then he (or she) must rise to the challenge, not cry about the reality.
Head above the parapet!
Weave:
P.S There are probably pilots out there that can't spell or use spellcheck but are very good at flying and keep their passengers safe and happy.
D.Diver:
But what will happen in a few year's if all the experienced guys are going on retirement?
This means there will be a huge gap and no pilots to fly, right?
I have seen this principle in Dutch Airforce, they keep on hiring even if they don't have at this moment spots available.
If they don't do it they will create a big gap in the pilots pool when the majority goes to retirement.
Not only in the aviation but also DSM a chemical company is on the edge of going bankrupt because in 3 a 4 years 60% will have to retire.
So how long will it take before the helicopter world takes a hit like this?
Same as how long will it take that key man insurers of the customers will demand requirements nobody can deliver any more?
It looks like the rotary world is in a downward spin flight to the ground.
This means there will be a huge gap and no pilots to fly, right?
I have seen this principle in Dutch Airforce, they keep on hiring even if they don't have at this moment spots available.
If they don't do it they will create a big gap in the pilots pool when the majority goes to retirement.
Not only in the aviation but also DSM a chemical company is on the edge of going bankrupt because in 3 a 4 years 60% will have to retire.
So how long will it take before the helicopter world takes a hit like this?
Same as how long will it take that key man insurers of the customers will demand requirements nobody can deliver any more?
It looks like the rotary world is in a downward spin flight to the ground.
The owners/boards/accountants that dictate the policy of adding or not adding unnecessary crew (in this case copilots but it applies to apprentice maintainers as well) to the budget are concerned with immediate profitability not the health of the aviation industry in 5 or 10 years. I've tried to argue the value of doing what you suggest and it is not easy. When you do succeed then one of these guys who gets the break will quit and run to the competition with his newly padded CV full of shiny new ratings and hours. Thus endeth the program....
Nothing that is happening now is new. I would argue that the fixed wing side is worse but it's all a matter of perspective. The 'industry' has survived this far and will continue. As operators become unable to fill the crew seats, then solutions will be found:
...bankruptcy or liquidation
...internally funded mentoring (higher rates or lower profit)
...higher wages to compete for talent
...customers look to other services
...or...all/none of the above???
But the world won't end. If one wants to succeed in it, then he (or she) must rise to the challenge, not cry about the reality.
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@Stallion85
Drop down and give me 20!
@Wizzard
So there is still a change for the CPL low timers
@Pilot and Apprentice
Hell yeah!
Sorry, but actually it is not my first language.
And sorry again for being sloppy but I was in a rush. (I know it`s a lame excuse)
And sorry again for being sloppy but I was in a rush. (I know it`s a lame excuse)
@Wizzard
There will be experienced OAG pilots who will have had their fill of dragging their a*ses over the ocean - especially high-time co-pilots fed up with stagnant promotion prospects - who will take a career change to the corporate world. IF the salaries are "real world"! (Mr "FTSE 100" will need deeper pockets)
They in turn will be replaced by low-time CPLs who will gain experience and when able to will take a career change etc...
They in turn will be replaced by low-time CPLs who will gain experience and when able to will take a career change etc...
@Pilot and Apprentice
But the world won't end. If one wants to succeed in it, then he (or she) must rise to the challenge, not cry about the reality.
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Fresh pilot
Hi,
I am about to finish my training and will be looking for job. Is there a chance to get into offshore industry? I'll have just JAA CPL(H) (no ATPL theory), type rated on R22, R44 and Guimbal Cabri G2, 25 years old, 190 hours rotary only and other good qualities.
I know I should have taken the ATPL theory, but at that time I didn't know much about flying. I am determined to take a second round and get this theory. Bounding is not a problem for me. I already had one and it did work well and both sides have been happy. I am willing to relocate.
If the offshore is off topic, do you have any idea where is "THE SHORTAGE"? Just to know where to start.
If you are sick of newies or my bad english, you have my apology... Note: I have been studying english just for three years from the very beginning.
Thank you for any reply or PM that will help. Frankie
I am about to finish my training and will be looking for job. Is there a chance to get into offshore industry? I'll have just JAA CPL(H) (no ATPL theory), type rated on R22, R44 and Guimbal Cabri G2, 25 years old, 190 hours rotary only and other good qualities.
I know I should have taken the ATPL theory, but at that time I didn't know much about flying. I am determined to take a second round and get this theory. Bounding is not a problem for me. I already had one and it did work well and both sides have been happy. I am willing to relocate.
If the offshore is off topic, do you have any idea where is "THE SHORTAGE"? Just to know where to start.
If you are sick of newies or my bad english, you have my apology... Note: I have been studying english just for three years from the very beginning.
Thank you for any reply or PM that will help. Frankie
Last edited by Fanous_CZ; 3rd Feb 2014 at 15:08. Reason: Correction of sentence, content the same
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Fanous, The basic requirements to be even considered for offshore, certainly in the North Sea are ATPL theory, and a multi engine IR. With that, at the minute, there's never been a better time to get hired in the North Sea. Things change quickly though and what's true today may change next week. All about timing and luck sometimes.
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Hello everyone!
I'am looking for some more informations about salaries,accomodation etc in such companies like Weststar,Gulf Helicopters,CHC. please PM me if you know the information.
thank you in advance!
P.S. I won't ask jhauma because I never flew B412)
I'am looking for some more informations about salaries,accomodation etc in such companies like Weststar,Gulf Helicopters,CHC. please PM me if you know the information.
thank you in advance!
P.S. I won't ask jhauma because I never flew B412)
Last edited by evergreen139; 24th Feb 2015 at 09:47.
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3sorry?
What's up with you? You all never get a mistake? I said sorry, and you all keep going against me? I don't understand. I am a person who like help other ones, but I have many people to help close to me. I tell about how I find my job. Other persons asked me by private and I hep them. I told them, step by step what I did to get my job. I don't understand you. This is a small sector, you will go your way down, boomerangs ...... I don't understand. People who can't forgive other ones!! No one to help me, or to right me, only "he drift, go on". How many of all of you get a mistake and never say sorry? That person, who never get a mistake or ever say sorry, yes you, say something against me, please, I'm proud listen to you!
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This is a good forum. It have many people and resources. I like it, but if I have never upload a post anymore because I am a marked person and nobody want talk to me, please, tell me. I don't want to be your toy anymore.
Thanks by your time.
Thanks by your time.
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Maybe I'm the first to apologise to you; I might be an old fart, with way more flying time, more experiences -and some of them are not the ones I would like to share with you as you might be scared.
What most of the coleagues are trying to suggest you that this is small world with small comunity - and it is, lately, putted in non gentlemens position. Read other topics - late payments, poor flight safety, falsification of the documents, bad working conditions, terrible travel arrangements.
For a newbie it might look good -you got some flying time, got some experience - but also consider that one might loose its health, licence and life.
So, all the best, godspeed - and leave us, old captains in our seek for holy grale. A good job, with decent salary and decent attitude to pilots, with safety in flying and without improvisation in maintenance.
One day you will - hopefully - wish to have such old fart as a captain with you in the cockpit. He might save lives of both of you.
Untill then - happy landings, a lot of safe experience - and we might meet each other somewhere sometime.
RGDS, Mike
What most of the coleagues are trying to suggest you that this is small world with small comunity - and it is, lately, putted in non gentlemens position. Read other topics - late payments, poor flight safety, falsification of the documents, bad working conditions, terrible travel arrangements.
For a newbie it might look good -you got some flying time, got some experience - but also consider that one might loose its health, licence and life.
So, all the best, godspeed - and leave us, old captains in our seek for holy grale. A good job, with decent salary and decent attitude to pilots, with safety in flying and without improvisation in maintenance.
One day you will - hopefully - wish to have such old fart as a captain with you in the cockpit. He might save lives of both of you.
Untill then - happy landings, a lot of safe experience - and we might meet each other somewhere sometime.
RGDS, Mike
Last edited by Miklavz; 25th Jun 2014 at 16:57. Reason: gramatics
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So you have the job; reconsider twice before you enter something suspicious; if something looks to good to be possible - than it is impossible.
I'm still looking for Holy grail - and I hope - or believe that I have found one.
Good luck!
I'm still looking for Holy grail - and I hope - or believe that I have found one.
Good luck!