Enstrom Corner
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Location: lancs.UK
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A specialistpaint distributor *should* be able to supply the correct primer....you could always look for Automotive paint and bodyshop suppliers on the Net, from there, find the manufacturers, such as Dupont, Sikkens Etc and email their tech.dept direct...they should have tech. sheets to cover prep and application.
Marine applications also come to mind.
Have you been looking at retail outlets for Professional "trade" paints?
You are obviously a capable person, determined to understand your machine and learn the disciplines needed to maintain it. Professional engineering suppliers are the way forward. I think you'll find Zinc Chromate primer available in 1/2 litrepacks upwards..generally, 2-pack paints are streets ahead of solvent, or water-based stuff Avery thin, translucent coat is all that's normally needed....again, a paint-manufacturer will give full details of systems , prep, different coats and overcoating etc. hth.
Marine applications also come to mind.
Have you been looking at retail outlets for Professional "trade" paints?
You are obviously a capable person, determined to understand your machine and learn the disciplines needed to maintain it. Professional engineering suppliers are the way forward. I think you'll find Zinc Chromate primer available in 1/2 litrepacks upwards..generally, 2-pack paints are streets ahead of solvent, or water-based stuff Avery thin, translucent coat is all that's normally needed....again, a paint-manufacturer will give full details of systems , prep, different coats and overcoating etc. hth.
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Finding it isn't the problem, it's the time it takes to get it sent here. This has already been apart going on a month and the primer is holding me up now. I think I am just going to use Rustoleum self etching primer found at local auto parts store and WalMart. Gray is good color for inner panels anyway and the reviews on long term corrosion protection are good on this. Besides I think for other than large commercial shops zinc chromate has been replaced with zinc phosphate, which this primer is. Either way it is better than how it is. The existing coating is coming off on the inner panels and the primer on the support tubes didn't do much to stop corrosion there. I might use Dupli-color self etch green on the tubes. Not aluminum anyway. Always interested in experience and opinions though. As to my rotors I will wait for the good stuff. Plan is for PTI acid wash primer followed by PTI Epoxy primer then topped with PTI Polyurethane. Semi gloss Dakota black on leading edge and underneath and Gloss Madrid Red on tips. Suppose to be a super hard and tough coating.
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Have you tried Aircraft Spruce? At Pilot Supplies and Aircraft Parts from Aircraft Spruce. They do have it. However, it is becoming more and more difficult to get as it is a environmentally unfriendly material. In my dealing with Aircraft Spruce, I have found that they are good folks to deal with, fair and will quickly ship the product.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Yes Aircraft Spruce has to get it from PTI and they wait for enough orders to make it worthwhile to send a truck to pick it up due to hazardous fees. Could take upwards of 30 to 45 days sometimes. I'm working with PTI rep and AS rep directly to try to get some drop shipped. I can't wait to put this back together so I decided on Rustoleum self etching primer from walmart with a topcoat of Rustoleum rust control gloss gray enamel for the inner panels and the self etching might be OK for the support tubes since it has a dark green shade to it. If not I may just get the Dupli-color self etching lighter green. The Rustoleum has zinc phosphate, but the Dupli-color does not. I think it is the Titanium in the Duplicolor that controls rust, but I'm not sure. Others have reported great results years after application on both so I don't think I'm going to have any issues. Will keep a close watch on it though.
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Well looks like another miss by the former mechanic. What are the chances that the overrunning clutch would be totally empty of oil since it is a required check on all annuals? Which was completed less than 25 hours ago. Not a drop in the clutch. Now I have to find a couple ounces of Mobil Jet Oil II before I can move on. Will it ever end? This guy should lose his license. I can't imagine how dangerous a locked up overrunning clutch would be. OH yes I can. DEAD
Join Date: Aug 2007
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lvflyer:
You've got some very interesting things going on with your Enstrom. From what you've posted, I recall you've have collective binding problems, a leaking gearbox, panel and flight control tube corrosion, M/R leading edge erosion and delamination, untorqued transmission mount bolts, and now a dry clutch.
On top of all that, you've paid a mechanic for a recent annual inspection where these discrepancies should have been found and fixed.
It seems, just based on the incomplete evidence here, that your A&P (and AI?) may have dropped the ball -- to put it mildly. For that, you may want to have a word with the local FSDO.
However, and with respect, your remedies for the listed discrepancies seem equally worrisome. Rustoleum from Walmart in lieu of Zinc Chromate? Household paint on the M/R blade leading edge?
Who is applying the paint? Is it being done per OEM requirements? Is blade balance being considered? And is the blade erosion outside of tolerance? Who is doing the filing/blending on the leading edge? Who is balancing the blades afterwards? Will this work be signed off by an A&P? Are your torque wrenches certified accurate? Are your maintenance manuals (which I assume you are following) up to date, with latest revisions and bulletins?
My recommendation would be for you to stop where you are and assess the condition of the aircraft as an pilot/owner, and not as a mechanic (unless you are an A&P). You should find a competent, well qualified mechanic to inspect the aircraft NOW. Get an estimate to complete the repair work using OEM and FAA approved materials and consumables.
If you can't afford to do it right, you have some serious decisions to make. You can continue down your current path of what seems to be non-compliant standards, or you can cut your losses and sell the aircraft to someone with the budget to complete the work in an approved way. Enstroms are well regarded aircraft...it will sell even in pieces.
I've never worked on an Enstrom, but I've signed enough helicopter maintenance logbooks to know that before I put my name to paper, the work was done per spec and parts used were all genuine and authorized by the OEM and/or FAA. Your Enstrom deserves that. The FAA requires it.
And most importantly, your family and passengers trust that your aircraft has been maintained to the highest standards. Don't let them down.
You've got some very interesting things going on with your Enstrom. From what you've posted, I recall you've have collective binding problems, a leaking gearbox, panel and flight control tube corrosion, M/R leading edge erosion and delamination, untorqued transmission mount bolts, and now a dry clutch.
On top of all that, you've paid a mechanic for a recent annual inspection where these discrepancies should have been found and fixed.
It seems, just based on the incomplete evidence here, that your A&P (and AI?) may have dropped the ball -- to put it mildly. For that, you may want to have a word with the local FSDO.
However, and with respect, your remedies for the listed discrepancies seem equally worrisome. Rustoleum from Walmart in lieu of Zinc Chromate? Household paint on the M/R blade leading edge?
Who is applying the paint? Is it being done per OEM requirements? Is blade balance being considered? And is the blade erosion outside of tolerance? Who is doing the filing/blending on the leading edge? Who is balancing the blades afterwards? Will this work be signed off by an A&P? Are your torque wrenches certified accurate? Are your maintenance manuals (which I assume you are following) up to date, with latest revisions and bulletins?
My recommendation would be for you to stop where you are and assess the condition of the aircraft as an pilot/owner, and not as a mechanic (unless you are an A&P). You should find a competent, well qualified mechanic to inspect the aircraft NOW. Get an estimate to complete the repair work using OEM and FAA approved materials and consumables.
If you can't afford to do it right, you have some serious decisions to make. You can continue down your current path of what seems to be non-compliant standards, or you can cut your losses and sell the aircraft to someone with the budget to complete the work in an approved way. Enstroms are well regarded aircraft...it will sell even in pieces.
I've never worked on an Enstrom, but I've signed enough helicopter maintenance logbooks to know that before I put my name to paper, the work was done per spec and parts used were all genuine and authorized by the OEM and/or FAA. Your Enstrom deserves that. The FAA requires it.
And most importantly, your family and passengers trust that your aircraft has been maintained to the highest standards. Don't let them down.
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Matari, Thanks for your interest and concern. Some minor corrections of your conclusions.
First this is my first annual. The former owner paid $5k plus every year for his annuals from the mechanic that I wish to expose. The ship should have been in the best condition possible at that rate. I am posting this so others may learn. I am under the capable hands of a licensed A&P with helicopter experience.
Collective was rigged wrong and now perfect thanks to my mechanic, Bayard, Dennis, and others on this forum.
Leaking gearbox was because of the loose bolts on the transmission case and not mounting bolts. This should have been taken care of along time ago.
I agree with you that somebody should give the other people around here a heads up about the A&P that dropped the ball repeatedly. Problem is the IA helped me a great deal and was very particular years ago. I don't know why he is turning a blind eye to this guys work. I told him about it and he said "no it couldn't be his fault, somebody else worked on it after him"... I told the former owner and he won't even acknowledge me at airshows and won't acknowledge receipt of emails I send him with pictures. I think he was a victim.
The corrosion on rotors is not out of tolerance and blade balance is not an issue since the paint is being replaced not added. I thought when I initially sanded the corrossion off and it was still hopping on take off that I did have a balance issue, but after discussion with Bayard I serviced the oleos and a lot of that went away. I found the oleos hadn't been serviced and some were empty of gas and one was frozen and hard to cycle. All great now. After I still had a little hop I thought I had to get the blades tracked until I bought the damper bleed tool from Enstrom and WOW difference between night and day. I've had to bleed several times now to get all the air out. There are no leaks so it must be trapped air from almost never being serviced, even after the lamiflex bearings were replaced just before it was delivered to me. Prior to me bleeding the dampers the right way it never flew so smooth. Not 7 years ago when I first flew it, the time I flew it before purchase, and the day of delivery after the lamiflex bearings were replaced and a claim made that it was balanced to .1. It wasn't. I still think I want to buy a PB3 and permanently mount it to have an ongoing analyzer of vibrations, but that is down the road. I may have to have the tabs adjusted a little also since there is a little bit of cyclic feedback.
I am not using the zinc phosphate based primer on the rotors just on surface areas where the existing primer, obviously not a good job, has flaked off. All the research I have conducted is that the zinc phosphate has replaced the zinc chromate. The aircraft paint shop on the airport, which is part of a very anal shop that works on high dollar corporate aircraft doesn't use zinc chromate, they use zinc phosphate based primer. The same stuff I am using is available from Aircraft Spruce, look it up. Rustoleum Self Etching Primer and Dupli-Color Self Etching Primer. Both used by the RV builders for years. The corrosion on the support tubes is not pitting I think it is more stain than anything else, but it needs to be touched up. I think the grease and grime that has never been cleaned off in 7 years just ate the primer away.
So with that information you can see that all is within spec and all is within legal and safe bounds..again thanks for your concern but with the help and guidance of all the folks on this forum, my A&P, Bayard at Enstrom, Roger Sharkey at Sharkeys I think I am at the best I can do since nobody around here knows Enstroms except the one that screwed it up for 7 years. I wish I had someone close. I know Olivers, who previously owned this helicopter is out of business, but I have spoken with the owner and the one after him and they are near Chicago. I am hoping to make my way up there this summer and let them look it over. At near 6800 total time on this helicopter I think I'm in the running for having the highest hours for a privately owned Enstrom. Maybe not, but the books sure show this one has been around.
First this is my first annual. The former owner paid $5k plus every year for his annuals from the mechanic that I wish to expose. The ship should have been in the best condition possible at that rate. I am posting this so others may learn. I am under the capable hands of a licensed A&P with helicopter experience.
Collective was rigged wrong and now perfect thanks to my mechanic, Bayard, Dennis, and others on this forum.
Leaking gearbox was because of the loose bolts on the transmission case and not mounting bolts. This should have been taken care of along time ago.
I agree with you that somebody should give the other people around here a heads up about the A&P that dropped the ball repeatedly. Problem is the IA helped me a great deal and was very particular years ago. I don't know why he is turning a blind eye to this guys work. I told him about it and he said "no it couldn't be his fault, somebody else worked on it after him"... I told the former owner and he won't even acknowledge me at airshows and won't acknowledge receipt of emails I send him with pictures. I think he was a victim.
The corrosion on rotors is not out of tolerance and blade balance is not an issue since the paint is being replaced not added. I thought when I initially sanded the corrossion off and it was still hopping on take off that I did have a balance issue, but after discussion with Bayard I serviced the oleos and a lot of that went away. I found the oleos hadn't been serviced and some were empty of gas and one was frozen and hard to cycle. All great now. After I still had a little hop I thought I had to get the blades tracked until I bought the damper bleed tool from Enstrom and WOW difference between night and day. I've had to bleed several times now to get all the air out. There are no leaks so it must be trapped air from almost never being serviced, even after the lamiflex bearings were replaced just before it was delivered to me. Prior to me bleeding the dampers the right way it never flew so smooth. Not 7 years ago when I first flew it, the time I flew it before purchase, and the day of delivery after the lamiflex bearings were replaced and a claim made that it was balanced to .1. It wasn't. I still think I want to buy a PB3 and permanently mount it to have an ongoing analyzer of vibrations, but that is down the road. I may have to have the tabs adjusted a little also since there is a little bit of cyclic feedback.
I am not using the zinc phosphate based primer on the rotors just on surface areas where the existing primer, obviously not a good job, has flaked off. All the research I have conducted is that the zinc phosphate has replaced the zinc chromate. The aircraft paint shop on the airport, which is part of a very anal shop that works on high dollar corporate aircraft doesn't use zinc chromate, they use zinc phosphate based primer. The same stuff I am using is available from Aircraft Spruce, look it up. Rustoleum Self Etching Primer and Dupli-Color Self Etching Primer. Both used by the RV builders for years. The corrosion on the support tubes is not pitting I think it is more stain than anything else, but it needs to be touched up. I think the grease and grime that has never been cleaned off in 7 years just ate the primer away.
So with that information you can see that all is within spec and all is within legal and safe bounds..again thanks for your concern but with the help and guidance of all the folks on this forum, my A&P, Bayard at Enstrom, Roger Sharkey at Sharkeys I think I am at the best I can do since nobody around here knows Enstroms except the one that screwed it up for 7 years. I wish I had someone close. I know Olivers, who previously owned this helicopter is out of business, but I have spoken with the owner and the one after him and they are near Chicago. I am hoping to make my way up there this summer and let them look it over. At near 6800 total time on this helicopter I think I'm in the running for having the highest hours for a privately owned Enstrom. Maybe not, but the books sure show this one has been around.
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Normal oil temperature
I think I have asked this before, but maybe not. I can't recall all the responses. What is the normal oil temperature for a 280C hovering in 80 degrees and 80% humidity? My GEM starts flashing at 230, but stock gauge isn't anywhere neer red. Does the GEM need to be adjusted so it isn't flashing at that low temp? Also has anyone had experience with the Airwolf Chiller, a set of cooling fins for the oil filter. I think a lot of the benefit depends on airflow so how can I get more airflow to the front of the engine? The other Airwolf option is to install the remote oil filter adapter and place the oil filter in a cooler location. Suppose to get 30 to 60 degrees of cooling and a lot more efficient than the auxiliary oil cooler from Enstrom.
Join Date: Jul 2013
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CO280FX Regarding your previous post about Enstrom doors. Can you describe the Velcro Bandaid a little more? I can't get the latch lined up and I've had the opportunity to experience the door flying open more than once, even once in a practice autorotation. Very unnerving. Also with your experience can you or anyone else give me some guidelines on oil temperatures that are normal for 77 280C. I just finished my first annual switching to Phillips 20WX50W and with 80+ degree and high humidity around here I'm still getting a warning on my JPL EDM 700 when climbing out with left quartering wind that flashes starting at 230 and goes up to 235 before starting to come back down when I level out. Do I need to adjust the alarm limit on the EDM? Is that a normally expected operating temperature with these conditions? I don't think it is so drastic around here to warrant the auxilary oil cooler, but what about using the Airwolf Chiller Airwolf Filter :: Oil Filter Chiller after relocating the oil filter or redirecting more air to the filter?
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Due respect to you! Interesting photos, especially the "professional" application of gobbets of red silicone,trying to hide the leaks.
Console yourself, If he was the best, just how bad were the others?
You seem to be on the ball and researching the best methodology and an understanding of materials and technologies before jumping in.
I had a friend with a full professional auto paint and body-shop who repainted his Cessna 172 after a bare-metal strip and engineers' inspection.
The prop got several coats of 2-pack black, which was stoved in a low-bake oven......It was amazing how quickly the paint eroded back to bare metal on the leading edges of the blades. IIRC he used blade-tape after another repaint and resolved the problem.
Your MR blades certainly look neglected. the previous owner was obviously a "Cheque-book flyer" otherwise, instead of just tossing money at it, he would have found some of the horrors you have uncovered....... keep at it, you should wind up with a really,really good machine....you deserve it
Console yourself, If he was the best, just how bad were the others?
You seem to be on the ball and researching the best methodology and an understanding of materials and technologies before jumping in.
I had a friend with a full professional auto paint and body-shop who repainted his Cessna 172 after a bare-metal strip and engineers' inspection.
The prop got several coats of 2-pack black, which was stoved in a low-bake oven......It was amazing how quickly the paint eroded back to bare metal on the leading edges of the blades. IIRC he used blade-tape after another repaint and resolved the problem.
Your MR blades certainly look neglected. the previous owner was obviously a "Cheque-book flyer" otherwise, instead of just tossing money at it, he would have found some of the horrors you have uncovered....... keep at it, you should wind up with a really,really good machine....you deserve it
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Thanks for the encouragement cockney steve. It's been a tough road, but I think I have most the kinks out. I still haven't gotten my order from the paint shop yet. Sean just decided not to reply to me anymore and I can't get what I need from Aircraft Spruce. I just really cringe at the idea of blade tape at this time. I read too many horror stories and with the weight of the blades as they are with lifting tape it is a handfull to say the least in flight. Urethane is suppose to be a really tough coating for the leading edge. It is two part and suppose to be really resilient. We'll see.
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Oil temps
I still haven't gotten a response to my high oil temperature issue. What is the normal operating temperatures I should see on a 280C in high 80 degree and high 80 humidity at 1450 TIT? Should I adjust my JPL oil temperature warning more like 240 than 230? Oh I changed to Phillips XC 20W50.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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240 is on the high side for normal running but ok for a warning level. Check everything is OK - oil coolers not blocked with grass etc. Check your mixture settings too.
I dont like repeated 'false' warnings from an engine monitor - they get switched off and ignored. If your engine wont run below 230 (some wont!) even though everything is right set the limit to 240 then if something does go wrong you'll get a warning you take note of.
If you're serious about understanding your engine - and I guess you are- google John Deakin's Pelicans Perch articles on AVweb. There are a lot of irrelevant articles but the engine management ones are gold! They approach engine management from a fixed wing perspective but the knowledge can equally be applied with care to helicopter engines too.
I dont like repeated 'false' warnings from an engine monitor - they get switched off and ignored. If your engine wont run below 230 (some wont!) even though everything is right set the limit to 240 then if something does go wrong you'll get a warning you take note of.
If you're serious about understanding your engine - and I guess you are- google John Deakin's Pelicans Perch articles on AVweb. There are a lot of irrelevant articles but the engine management ones are gold! They approach engine management from a fixed wing perspective but the knowledge can equally be applied with care to helicopter engines too.
IVf, look at Robo blade paint problem,not talking about dis-bonds but paint erosion. Not just desert dwellers.
Not found any paint that lasts on leading edge, re painting numerous times just tends to screw T&B
Not found any paint that lasts on leading edge, re painting numerous times just tends to screw T&B
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oil temps
I found a new auxiliary oil cooler in surplus stock for $500. Can someone send me some pictures of the auxiliary oil cooler installation, especially pictures of the oil lines and where the cooler mounts on a 280C. Enstrom wants $1400 for an oil line. I may have a qualified oil line manufacturer around here for a lot less. It would be great to get the temperatures 20 to 30 degrees lower.