EC135
Sometimes there is slight confusion when one talks of 'full autos to the deck'. Do they mean "with engines running" or a proper engines off situation?
I'll assume you mean (in this instance) a power on recovery to the deck. In this case, NO we in the emergency services only do them to the hover with engines running. We do occasionally run it on, but never with engines OFF.
Might be something to do with the 'frange' clipping the ground?
I'll assume you mean (in this instance) a power on recovery to the deck. In this case, NO we in the emergency services only do them to the hover with engines running. We do occasionally run it on, but never with engines OFF.
Might be something to do with the 'frange' clipping the ground?
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Yes, I do mean "a power on recovery to the deck".
I heard that the German Army doesn't do them because of the danger of cracks in the main rotorblades. Is it true that the POH says that AR's have to be recovered in a hover?
I heard that the German Army doesn't do them because of the danger of cracks in the main rotorblades. Is it true that the POH says that AR's have to be recovered in a hover?
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I have flown AS332L. AS355 and S76 and have never done autos terminating in ground contact ever. we always finish to a power recovery in hover unless we go-around before of course.
I cannot imagine why anyone would do a touchdown auto with the throttles back in a twin, whats the point, high risk for low return, how many double engine failures are you going to get anyway, not very many
When I was flying singles we did them all the time for obvious reasons. but never even seen someone do a full down in a twin.
didnt think I was out of line with the norm here, or am I ?
regards
CF
I cannot imagine why anyone would do a touchdown auto with the throttles back in a twin, whats the point, high risk for low return, how many double engine failures are you going to get anyway, not very many
When I was flying singles we did them all the time for obvious reasons. but never even seen someone do a full down in a twin.
didnt think I was out of line with the norm here, or am I ?
regards
CF
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I agree, that 's the reason why Army has a full flight simulator in Le Luc. Some failures like the loss of tail rotor are easy to demonstrate, the replay mode is an amazing training device too.
Why risking to destroy a 4 millions dollars or more ship by doing a full autorotation for training purpose!!!! A FFS authorizes a much better training.
In France, only the test pilot have the right to perform full autorotation with twin engines like puma, super puma , twinstar etc...
Why risking to destroy a 4 millions dollars or more ship by doing a full autorotation for training purpose!!!! A FFS authorizes a much better training.
In France, only the test pilot have the right to perform full autorotation with twin engines like puma, super puma , twinstar etc...
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It would be interesting to see what other manufacturers dictate in their POH's.
Let's hear it guys, how many twin manufacturers permit full autos to the ground?
Sorry EH 101 drivers, forgot to mention triples. Better include them too.
STL
Let's hear it guys, how many twin manufacturers permit full autos to the ground?
Sorry EH 101 drivers, forgot to mention triples. Better include them too.
STL
At first, of course it's possible to autorotate the EC 135 successful to the ground, also with engines still running in flight idle.
2. Yes it's true EC doesn't support AR without power recovery.
3. Yes the german army prohibited AR without power recovery.
The reasons are: Due to the light main rotor it isn't easy to control the RPM, also on the AR glide, any EC 135 pilot knows about this problem.
Yes, the blade and the rotorhub have technical problems with very high cone angles. As any helicopter pilot should be know, is the cone angle rising higher and higher if you try to get lift on the blades with a lowering rpm. But such a risk exists on AR's without power recovering. Yes, there are some expensive harms on ships after such power off AR. The german army use the EC 135 for the newbie training.
There are no problems with power off ARs on EC's BK 117, BO 105 and AS 355 Twins.
2. Yes it's true EC doesn't support AR without power recovery.
3. Yes the german army prohibited AR without power recovery.
The reasons are: Due to the light main rotor it isn't easy to control the RPM, also on the AR glide, any EC 135 pilot knows about this problem.
Yes, the blade and the rotorhub have technical problems with very high cone angles. As any helicopter pilot should be know, is the cone angle rising higher and higher if you try to get lift on the blades with a lowering rpm. But such a risk exists on AR's without power recovering. Yes, there are some expensive harms on ships after such power off AR. The german army use the EC 135 for the newbie training.
There are no problems with power off ARs on EC's BK 117, BO 105 and AS 355 Twins.
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To go a little further........
There are several little "issues".
The Nr indicator is very small and may be difficult to interpret exactly where the RPM is.
Nr is not displayed on the VEMD.
The blades do not like LOW Nr repetitively and were never designed to be subjected to LOW Nr.
Depending on the technique if the throttles are rolled on entry you better be sure that when you return the engines to NORMAL that the throttles are not moved past the N position.
Only a rumour but I heard that the German Army managed to get one to 124% Nr recently.
Why would you want to use a 135 for training in the first place - there are so many things you just could not demonstrate to a student.
The Nr indicator is very small and may be difficult to interpret exactly where the RPM is.
Nr is not displayed on the VEMD.
The blades do not like LOW Nr repetitively and were never designed to be subjected to LOW Nr.
Depending on the technique if the throttles are rolled on entry you better be sure that when you return the engines to NORMAL that the throttles are not moved past the N position.
Only a rumour but I heard that the German Army managed to get one to 124% Nr recently.
Why would you want to use a 135 for training in the first place - there are so many things you just could not demonstrate to a student.
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Why would you want to use a 135 for training in the first place
Minister of Finance (at that time) is from that very same region.
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I only have an FM for an AS355 to hand, but this prohibits voluntary AR to the deck. It strikes me as being a risk-based issue. Given the high cost of twin engine heles and the fairly low frequency of needing to deal with double engine failures, the risk of training to the ground is not worth the benefit.
It is interesting to compare the situation for twins with SE. I would be unhappy to fly a single without being current on FULL EOLs (i.e. to the deck), but I am reasonably comfortable with the idea of not doing them for twins, as long as the entry and glide are practised and current.
As to whether there are more problems with autos on an EC135, I am not sure. The NR is certainly lively.
SIMs certainly sound like the answer, so long as they are a reasonable simulation of the real thing and aren't prohibitively expensive. Does anyone know whether the sim to be operated by Bond at Gloucester will be able to do this sort of thing like the real machine?? My guess is that it was mainly directed towards IFR training.
It is interesting to compare the situation for twins with SE. I would be unhappy to fly a single without being current on FULL EOLs (i.e. to the deck), but I am reasonably comfortable with the idea of not doing them for twins, as long as the entry and glide are practised and current.
As to whether there are more problems with autos on an EC135, I am not sure. The NR is certainly lively.
SIMs certainly sound like the answer, so long as they are a reasonable simulation of the real thing and aren't prohibitively expensive. Does anyone know whether the sim to be operated by Bond at Gloucester will be able to do this sort of thing like the real machine?? My guess is that it was mainly directed towards IFR training.
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What the . . . . ?
Wierd!
If you ever come to Acapulco Mexico you will see 212's and being autorotated to the ground everyday, and sometimes 412's also.
A few years back you could see S76's being autorotated to ground everyday in Ciudad del Carmen which is the city where all the offshore helicopters are located.
When I got my very first 212 training I had about 300 hours total and the IP rolled both throttles to idle as I was taking off and had a about 40 ft. and 20 knots, he just wanted to know how I reacted, I was really impressed that you could land a twin so smoothly in those conditions, of course he took over after I just sat there thinking I was going to crash.
My point is I have seen twins being autorotated to the ground for years as part of regular training, some companies prefer not to risk it and send you to the simulator, but if they can't send you to FSI or whatever, then you must practice this in the aircraft.
I know the chance of dual engine failure is very slim, but there are many other reasons for autorotating like TR falilure.
If you ever come to Acapulco Mexico you will see 212's and being autorotated to the ground everyday, and sometimes 412's also.
A few years back you could see S76's being autorotated to ground everyday in Ciudad del Carmen which is the city where all the offshore helicopters are located.
When I got my very first 212 training I had about 300 hours total and the IP rolled both throttles to idle as I was taking off and had a about 40 ft. and 20 knots, he just wanted to know how I reacted, I was really impressed that you could land a twin so smoothly in those conditions, of course he took over after I just sat there thinking I was going to crash.
My point is I have seen twins being autorotated to the ground for years as part of regular training, some companies prefer not to risk it and send you to the simulator, but if they can't send you to FSI or whatever, then you must practice this in the aircraft.
I know the chance of dual engine failure is very slim, but there are many other reasons for autorotating like TR falilure.
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It may not be the reason, but for those of you who dont know:
The EC135 basically does not have a rotor head as such. The 355 has a starflex and others have articulated heads. The 135 blades are bolted solidly to the mast with no seperate flexible or moving parts. This means all flapping, feathering and dragging is done by the advanced composite blades. I would imagine that they wouldnt take kindly to low RPM coning angles associated with messed up EOLs.
Also, the head is SOOOOOOO lively; during autos you hardly ever get the lever fully down. Not suprised at a 124% already. That said, it is still a twitchy delight to fly. The germans may have had political influence, but the servicability rate is fantastic. Important at a FT school.
PS... Mr Eurocopter, please PM me to give you the address to send the cheque
The EC135 basically does not have a rotor head as such. The 355 has a starflex and others have articulated heads. The 135 blades are bolted solidly to the mast with no seperate flexible or moving parts. This means all flapping, feathering and dragging is done by the advanced composite blades. I would imagine that they wouldnt take kindly to low RPM coning angles associated with messed up EOLs.
Also, the head is SOOOOOOO lively; during autos you hardly ever get the lever fully down. Not suprised at a 124% already. That said, it is still a twitchy delight to fly. The germans may have had political influence, but the servicability rate is fantastic. Important at a FT school.
PS... Mr Eurocopter, please PM me to give you the address to send the cheque
Just something from a chap who regularly autos his UH 1D (with composite blades on a teetering head), it's not just engine failiures that will require a full blown auto.....what about MRGB failiure/driveshaft failiure....now I know these things are these days thankfully rare and cost of training is always going to be the winner, but we do need to show our FNB's what it's like early on...so we need either a) a f****ing good sim to demo it, or b) keep a cheap/simple chopper to practice on
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EC135 Autos
The problem here are the so called `control-cuffs`.
These cuffs meassure approx. 6 ft in length and start at the blade root . At the outer point there are attached to the composite blade. They are responsible to transfer control inputs to the bearingless blade.
They can be easily overstressed during autos with low rpm
(e.g. cushion touchdown) due to the coning of the rotor.
These cuffs meassure approx. 6 ft in length and start at the blade root . At the outer point there are attached to the composite blade. They are responsible to transfer control inputs to the bearingless blade.
They can be easily overstressed during autos with low rpm
(e.g. cushion touchdown) due to the coning of the rotor.
212's are a hoot to autorotate to the ground.....just a two throttled Huey! Never done a 412 though.....
Being an ex-US Army Vietnam era pilot....I was fortunate enough to have been allowed to do thousands of the things....practice does make perfect.
The real key is the cost of insurance....and replacing broken bits if you do goof.....and with low inertia rotor systems....goofs happen quick and easy... not so with high inertia rotor systems. (the presence of inertia in the rotor system mitigates uh-oh's)
Being an ex-US Army Vietnam era pilot....I was fortunate enough to have been allowed to do thousands of the things....practice does make perfect.
The real key is the cost of insurance....and replacing broken bits if you do goof.....and with low inertia rotor systems....goofs happen quick and easy... not so with high inertia rotor systems. (the presence of inertia in the rotor system mitigates uh-oh's)
SASless....I couldn't agree more..the Huey is a hoot and roar..and you can play with the NR due to the inertia in the head..even with the new composite blades we fly with. What's the way ahead to teach new pilots?
The way ahead?
Lots of questions showing up in the various helicopter web sites around the globe pertaining to that very question. New thread coming up!
Lots of questions showing up in the various helicopter web sites around the globe pertaining to that very question. New thread coming up!
Hi FlyingSquirrel
It's not on site yet but will be based at Staverton, no prices at the moment - I suspect it will be very busy initially with a backlog of IF training.
TeeS
It's not on site yet but will be based at Staverton, no prices at the moment - I suspect it will be very busy initially with a backlog of IF training.
TeeS
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EC135 Auxillery Tank
Of you who fly and operate EC135's I would like to know your views on the fitting of an auxillery fuel tank. I understand that it is attached directly to the floor and has quick release connections for fuel and power and can be removed easily by two persons.
Any advice welcomed.
Any advice welcomed.