Robinson R44
STANDTO, yes most of the UK is covered by aerial photos. We use a collection of CD entitled Citiviewer for Merseyside, and very good it is to. For helping us ID the house that we need to take photo's of!
What it doesn't show are things like: what side are front/rear door hinges, what's around the side not seen on the CD, are there a couple of steps on the path or a low slung washing line. Stereo shots will even allow you to work out the height of fences and garden walls. All useful stuff for a rapid entry, but you need to get down and dirty to take them.
Again a seperate "recce bird" leads to more expense: sat around doing nothing, keeping crews current etc. People around here are used to our aircraft, so it doesn't arouse that much attention when taking photo's. People would soon learn that we had a "special" one for taking photo's.
What it doesn't show are things like: what side are front/rear door hinges, what's around the side not seen on the CD, are there a couple of steps on the path or a low slung washing line. Stereo shots will even allow you to work out the height of fences and garden walls. All useful stuff for a rapid entry, but you need to get down and dirty to take them.
Again a seperate "recce bird" leads to more expense: sat around doing nothing, keeping crews current etc. People around here are used to our aircraft, so it doesn't arouse that much attention when taking photo's. People would soon learn that we had a "special" one for taking photo's.
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Mightygem
Have they managed to offload G-BOOV yet. £375k seemed a bit steep.
And does anyone know if Lancs old 355 has gone yet. You would think that someone would donate one to us!
The other problem with GIS mapping is that people keep building extensions and digging ponds. This is particularly embarrasing with our low levels of ambient lighting over here, when you go over a fence and jump in the Koi pool.
You might need a spare m/c over there in Merseyside anyway. Imagine if the enemy had RPG's during Garston! Scary world we live in. R44 much more expendable. In fact, would probably go straight thru it!
Must lie down now - lunchtime drinking you see!
Have they managed to offload G-BOOV yet. £375k seemed a bit steep.
And does anyone know if Lancs old 355 has gone yet. You would think that someone would donate one to us!
The other problem with GIS mapping is that people keep building extensions and digging ponds. This is particularly embarrasing with our low levels of ambient lighting over here, when you go over a fence and jump in the Koi pool.
You might need a spare m/c over there in Merseyside anyway. Imagine if the enemy had RPG's during Garston! Scary world we live in. R44 much more expendable. In fact, would probably go straight thru it!
Must lie down now - lunchtime drinking you see!
Buitenzorg(!): I'd say observation accounts for 10% of our work.
Mostly:
stolen vehicles / failing to stop / robberies / missing persons / all serious land/sea and air crashes / transporting specialists to anywhere in the 10,000 sq mile force area / aerial photography / public order / HEMS / convoy security / searches, etc etc.
Most of this requires us to stay airborne for some considerable time with more than one police officer on board.
Standto: as has been stated, single helos are dead in the water, now and forever...the CAA / JAA (EASA) will see to that
So your argument is purely theoretical from the outset.
You can please some of the people some of the time
Mostly:
stolen vehicles / failing to stop / robberies / missing persons / all serious land/sea and air crashes / transporting specialists to anywhere in the 10,000 sq mile force area / aerial photography / public order / HEMS / convoy security / searches, etc etc.
Most of this requires us to stay airborne for some considerable time with more than one police officer on board.
Standto: as has been stated, single helos are dead in the water, now and forever...the CAA / JAA (EASA) will see to that
So your argument is purely theoretical from the outset.
You can please some of the people some of the time
Avoid imitations
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Just one more point...
I believe that the first UK police op using a rotary winged a/c was in 1931, which pre-dates the B-47 quite a bit.
I believe that the first UK police op using a rotary winged a/c was in 1931, which pre-dates the B-47 quite a bit.
BOOV wasn't ours to sell, it was leased. We have seen it flying since, and also seen it advertised as the star of a show, "Sit inside a REAL Police Helicopter". 
BOOV ........ seen it advertised as the star of a show, "Sit inside a REAL Police Helicopter".
I will 'plead' to that. Wearing another hat, and it worked very well... unfortunately though Cabair failed to send it on day two of the weekend and the queue had nothing to ride on! Expectations not realised.
Its a bit like police open days the public love to play with all the 'tits n bells' in the cars and this transposes to such as clearly identifyable police helicopters. And all the advertising shots used were the real thing from my flights in her a decade ago [no one sussed out the lack of hemets!].
The comment on the 'first' rotary .... it was June 1932 at the Epsom Derby and the craft was a Cierva Autogiro.
The World first police use of a helicopter was Norfolk [they who have yet to get to 24/7 operations] using a Westland owned Sikorsky S51 flown by [the] Alan Bristow .... June 1947...
I will 'plead' to that. Wearing another hat, and it worked very well... unfortunately though Cabair failed to send it on day two of the weekend and the queue had nothing to ride on! Expectations not realised.
Its a bit like police open days the public love to play with all the 'tits n bells' in the cars and this transposes to such as clearly identifyable police helicopters. And all the advertising shots used were the real thing from my flights in her a decade ago [no one sussed out the lack of hemets!].
The comment on the 'first' rotary .... it was June 1932 at the Epsom Derby and the craft was a Cierva Autogiro.
The World first police use of a helicopter was Norfolk [they who have yet to get to 24/7 operations] using a Westland owned Sikorsky S51 flown by [the] Alan Bristow .... June 1947...
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TC,
You state:
"I'd say observation accounts for 10% of our work.
Mostly:
stolen vehicles / failing to stop / robberies / missing persons / all serious land/sea and air crashes / transporting specialists to anywhere in the 10,000 sq mile force area / aerial photography / public order / HEMS / convoy security / searches, etc etc.
Most of this requires us to stay airborne for some considerable time with more than one police officer on board."
Actually, if you look through your list you'll find that the ASU's function in most of your items IS observation. Maybe your ASU has a specific task named "observation", but I was using it in a more general sense. Let's go over your tasks and the ASU's role in them one by one:
stolen vehicles: you go look for them, right? So do we. That's observation. Unless you sling them out as well?
A Lo-jack system can be fitted to the R44 and is, in the LA area, but here nobody has them in their cars, so we don't have one either.
failing to stop: I presume you'd pursue the offenders, transmit your observations to ground units, and have them make any arrests. So do we. Observation again.
robberies: response to calls I was talking about. Observe what's going on, transmit observations to ground units, they make the arrests.
missing persons: we go look for them, eyeball, searchlight and/or FLIR. Observation again.
all serious land/sea and air crashes: I'm guessing these would involve a lot of transporting victims, crews, equipment, etc., and there the police R44 would be almost useless. However, we did find a ship sinking with over 30 people on it, who were saved by other ships once we told them where to go.
aerial photography: we do so too, limited of course to fairly small hand-held cameras or the built-in onboard equipment.
public order: had a prison riot here week and a half ago; we observed for the ground units who had to actually sort it out.
HEMS: R44 almost totally useless here, we don't do it.
convoy security: looking for possible dangers, observation again.
searches: looking for things, people... If that's not observation I don't know what is.
We do our operations with one officer besides the pilot; I agree it would be better if we had two, but it can be done with one, just not as comfortably or well. With our standard crew we have 3 hours endurance plus reserves, I expect similar to yours.
You state:
"I'd say observation accounts for 10% of our work.
Mostly:
stolen vehicles / failing to stop / robberies / missing persons / all serious land/sea and air crashes / transporting specialists to anywhere in the 10,000 sq mile force area / aerial photography / public order / HEMS / convoy security / searches, etc etc.
Most of this requires us to stay airborne for some considerable time with more than one police officer on board."
Actually, if you look through your list you'll find that the ASU's function in most of your items IS observation. Maybe your ASU has a specific task named "observation", but I was using it in a more general sense. Let's go over your tasks and the ASU's role in them one by one:
stolen vehicles: you go look for them, right? So do we. That's observation. Unless you sling them out as well?
A Lo-jack system can be fitted to the R44 and is, in the LA area, but here nobody has them in their cars, so we don't have one either.failing to stop: I presume you'd pursue the offenders, transmit your observations to ground units, and have them make any arrests. So do we. Observation again.
robberies: response to calls I was talking about. Observe what's going on, transmit observations to ground units, they make the arrests.
missing persons: we go look for them, eyeball, searchlight and/or FLIR. Observation again.
all serious land/sea and air crashes: I'm guessing these would involve a lot of transporting victims, crews, equipment, etc., and there the police R44 would be almost useless. However, we did find a ship sinking with over 30 people on it, who were saved by other ships once we told them where to go.
aerial photography: we do so too, limited of course to fairly small hand-held cameras or the built-in onboard equipment.
public order: had a prison riot here week and a half ago; we observed for the ground units who had to actually sort it out.
HEMS: R44 almost totally useless here, we don't do it.
convoy security: looking for possible dangers, observation again.
searches: looking for things, people... If that's not observation I don't know what is.
We do our operations with one officer besides the pilot; I agree it would be better if we had two, but it can be done with one, just not as comfortably or well. With our standard crew we have 3 hours endurance plus reserves, I expect similar to yours.
PA News posted:
"The World first police use of a helicopter was Norfolk [they who have yet to get to 24/7 operations] using a Westland owned Sikorsky S51 flown by [the] Alan Bristow .... June 1947..."
And the Army Bell 47's, operating from the Metropolitan Police Country Club in 1967, with my Old Man as Inspector in charge. No reason to mention it, except it's his birthday today 
PA News, do you still have those photos?
"The World first police use of a helicopter was Norfolk [they who have yet to get to 24/7 operations] using a Westland owned Sikorsky S51 flown by [the] Alan Bristow .... June 1947..."
And the Army Bell 47's, operating from the Metropolitan Police Country Club in 1967, with my Old Man as Inspector in charge. No reason to mention it, except it's his birthday today
PA News, do you still have those photos?
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Hey TC. I didn't start the argument, just jumped in and stirred the dust up a bit
Se though about the gyros. As far back as 1931 it was a good idea! As you've said before, we are pretty good at wheel reinvention (watch this space for new fangled round one coming out soon) so sure as eggs is eggs, someone will try it again. Mind you, they did with the assistance of Wing Commander Ken when they were trying to find Lord Lucan, so it MUST be due for a revisit.
FortyOdd - I don't know if your XO would let me through the door!!. Ask him about an old licensing specialist that moved to fraggle rock about 5 yrs ago.....
And is JK STILL there??
Se though about the gyros. As far back as 1931 it was a good idea! As you've said before, we are pretty good at wheel reinvention (watch this space for new fangled round one coming out soon) so sure as eggs is eggs, someone will try it again. Mind you, they did with the assistance of Wing Commander Ken when they were trying to find Lord Lucan, so it MUST be due for a revisit.
FortyOdd - I don't know if your XO would let me through the door!!. Ask him about an old licensing specialist that moved to fraggle rock about 5 yrs ago.....
And is JK STILL there??
John
Photos... your old man [Happy Birthday to him by the way] in 1967 or do you mean the Norfolk ones from 20 years earlier?
I need to E-mail you direct anyway about an Essendon man [Frank Neale 1895-1979] but reply either way for images.
Photos... your old man [Happy Birthday to him by the way] in 1967 or do you mean the Norfolk ones from 20 years earlier?
I need to E-mail you direct anyway about an Essendon man [Frank Neale 1895-1979] but reply either way for images.
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TC:
In the context of this thread:
As you previously stated, the issue of police helicopters is not a matter for the JAA/EASA. Nothing has changed on the regulation of single-engine helicopters in the UK since JARs were produced. The UK policy was established well before the advent of the JAA.
In fact within the remit of the JARs, there is no barrier to the operation of singles when a safe-forced-landing (SFL) is possible - and there are extensive alleviations in JARs permitting the operation of singles in places when a SFL is not possible. Additional changes are also being considered to remove the restriction on singles for operations in a non-hostile offshore environment (e.g. helidecks in the GOM) - when a risk analysis indicates that they can operate to a safe standard. We are not seeing the demise of the single-engine helicopter.
This whole thread is predicated upon the notion that a single-engine helicopter could perform all of the functions required by the ASU. If the single cannot perform the whole task then there would have to be a revision of the task profile. Most police units only have a single helicopter - the fact that under specific circumstances an R22 could have done a task is really not the point.
In the context of this thread:
...as has been stated, single helos are dead in the water, now and forever...the CAA / JAA (EASA) will see to that
In fact within the remit of the JARs, there is no barrier to the operation of singles when a safe-forced-landing (SFL) is possible - and there are extensive alleviations in JARs permitting the operation of singles in places when a SFL is not possible. Additional changes are also being considered to remove the restriction on singles for operations in a non-hostile offshore environment (e.g. helidecks in the GOM) - when a risk analysis indicates that they can operate to a safe standard. We are not seeing the demise of the single-engine helicopter.
This whole thread is predicated upon the notion that a single-engine helicopter could perform all of the functions required by the ASU. If the single cannot perform the whole task then there would have to be a revision of the task profile. Most police units only have a single helicopter - the fact that under specific circumstances an R22 could have done a task is really not the point.
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Did a load of research on this. Found one side mount in the USA which the guy said was STC'd. Asked him for more details after he sent me a pic of a 44 flying with this thing bolted to it on the right side - never heard another thing other than he wanted $15,000 for the bag of bits.
Someone in the UK has been trying to get a mount strung across the inside of a 44 - which then slides out the right side for use. But too much vibration feedback to be successful.
A Tyler mount won't work on a 44 nose because there's no structure to bolt it to (unlike 206). The official R44 ENG has a strengthened nose section put in at production - and the battery moved down the tailcone to counterbalance the extra weight on the nose.
There is a 44 ENG coming into the UK soon with all the proper kit on it : www.flyingtv.co.uk
Someone in the UK has been trying to get a mount strung across the inside of a 44 - which then slides out the right side for use. But too much vibration feedback to be successful.
A Tyler mount won't work on a 44 nose because there's no structure to bolt it to (unlike 206). The official R44 ENG has a strengthened nose section put in at production - and the battery moved down the tailcone to counterbalance the extra weight on the nose.
There is a 44 ENG coming into the UK soon with all the proper kit on it : www.flyingtv.co.uk
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sirs: tyler camera indeed does have a left or right side camera mount faa stc.'d for the r44 to carry fsi ultra media or similar size cameras, ask for nelson or george at tyler camera for more info.
dr
dr
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Notice that on the weblink it says " Heli Air. R44s maintained by Heli Air have twice lapped the globe and flown to the North Pole successfully " See they don't mention the one that didn't make the South Pole
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Old heliman : Don't forget to watch the new Channel 4 series "Grumpy Old Men".
You're in it, aren't you ?
(Later)
My apologies - it was on tonight on BBC2. And you weren't in it. Even you aren't as miserable and grumpy as the line-up for this terrible series.
Or should that be 
You're in it, aren't you ?
(Later)
My apologies - it was on tonight on BBC2. And you weren't in it. Even you aren't as miserable and grumpy as the line-up for this terrible series.
Or should that be
Last edited by headsethair; 11th Oct 2003 at 05:47.
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R44 performance
As a FI working for a school operating at altitudes from 3000 up to 12000 feet I'm interested if somebody has made any experiences with the R44 Raven II at altitude?
Thank you?
Thank you?
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I have...
Well sort of
Not as high as 12k yet, but 6 - 8k in OAT of 25, the Raven II performs very well. This August we had OAT of 30 and we found it to have loads more power at all levels.
Starting the engine in -15 was easy back in the Winter and the same in the Summer with 30 degree's.
It out performs the standard Raven in every respect so far.
Hope that helps, feel free to P.M me if you need more information
Happy
Well sort of
Not as high as 12k yet, but 6 - 8k in OAT of 25, the Raven II performs very well. This August we had OAT of 30 and we found it to have loads more power at all levels.
Starting the engine in -15 was easy back in the Winter and the same in the Summer with 30 degree's.
It out performs the standard Raven in every respect so far.
Hope that helps, feel free to P.M me if you need more information
Happy