Getting your 'Wings' 2005 style? (Recruiting homosexuals to the military)
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You know, oral sex was considered indecent, and was actually illegal in several US states until quite recently. I can't recall there being a series of 'blowjob pride' marches in the streets of those states when the laws were repealed. The big difference is that very few men were denied membership to clubs, shunned by their church or simply beaten up at the bus stop because they copped the odd blowjob. I just can not understand the interest, let alone the outrage displayed by the bigots - that's means intolerant and close-minded, for all you rednecks out there - on this forum.
You know, all decent and morally upstanding people wipe their bum from the back; but there are a bunch of degenerates in the world who wipe their bum from the front !!! They're out there, leering at you from street corners!!! Be afraid, B Sousa! Run for your life Bronx! If they touch you, you might be tempted to wipe from the front too!!!!
I had a thought about why there's a recruiting stand at a gay pride march. Where else are you going to find thousands of men of recruiting age in the same place? But I think the recruiters would only achieve limited success. After all, why would any self-respecting gay man join an organisation where everyone flaunts their heterosexuality with pictures of wives and girlfriends on desks, and blokey banter about the chick they squared away on the weekend?
You know, all decent and morally upstanding people wipe their bum from the back; but there are a bunch of degenerates in the world who wipe their bum from the front !!! They're out there, leering at you from street corners!!! Be afraid, B Sousa! Run for your life Bronx! If they touch you, you might be tempted to wipe from the front too!!!!
I had a thought about why there's a recruiting stand at a gay pride march. Where else are you going to find thousands of men of recruiting age in the same place? But I think the recruiters would only achieve limited success. After all, why would any self-respecting gay man join an organisation where everyone flaunts their heterosexuality with pictures of wives and girlfriends on desks, and blokey banter about the chick they squared away on the weekend?
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As I mentioned early in this post, welcome to the 21st century, but I also see that many a person here are lingering in denial and have no tolerance for their neighbour. The way most of you are talking, one would think that the defence is recruiting men to load armourments into the 6” gun while wearing a toto. Wake up………
Not too sure if people are more tolerant here in Australia, but during the last decade since we made the changes and accepted gays into the forces, I have heard of no dramatic problems at all. I defy any of you to stand by and be able to point out ALL the gay sailors walking down the gangway or maybe point out ALL the gay soldiers
.
For a seemingly intelligent person to suggest this, is suggesting that all perverts are gay! WRONG AGAIN!
Fact – most pedophiles are STRAIGHT men, generally a step father that preys on his step kids and/or their friends.
Many men that are into cross dressing are happily married men, but love the feeling of sheer women’s undies
Some gay men maybe a little out there for the likings of many (myself included) but they are generally transparent in their way of life, unlike the predator who lurks behind a seemingly steady marriage!
Milt, the gays do breed………
Most of the breeders are married men who when they require company, disappear down for a loaf of bread and some milk, only to end up in the local park for that five minute relief! Think about that one!
Now I’m not condoning everything I see and hear, but at least I have an open mind to the changing world.
Must go, as I have to complain about a disgusting advert I just saw on tele……..it showed boobies!
Brace! Brace! Brace!
Not too sure if people are more tolerant here in Australia, but during the last decade since we made the changes and accepted gays into the forces, I have heard of no dramatic problems at all. I defy any of you to stand by and be able to point out ALL the gay sailors walking down the gangway or maybe point out ALL the gay soldiers
.
So long as there aint kids involved what folk get up to in private is their business.
Fact – most pedophiles are STRAIGHT men, generally a step father that preys on his step kids and/or their friends.
Many men that are into cross dressing are happily married men, but love the feeling of sheer women’s undies
Some gay men maybe a little out there for the likings of many (myself included) but they are generally transparent in their way of life, unlike the predator who lurks behind a seemingly steady marriage!
Milt, the gays do breed………
Most of the breeders are married men who when they require company, disappear down for a loaf of bread and some milk, only to end up in the local park for that five minute relief! Think about that one!
Now I’m not condoning everything I see and hear, but at least I have an open mind to the changing world.
Must go, as I have to complain about a disgusting advert I just saw on tele……..it showed boobies!
Brace! Brace! Brace!
Hey Bert.....I will freely accept the title of REDNECK....how about you? At least it is my neck that is red....
Reckon we could get away with some name calling of our own? But as usual in what ultimately winds up being a political argument....those on the left or liberal side engage in name calling and then take exception when it is returned. Shame the heterophobes out there cannot just learn to get along with the rest of the population.
Reckon we could get away with some name calling of our own? But as usual in what ultimately winds up being a political argument....those on the left or liberal side engage in name calling and then take exception when it is returned. Shame the heterophobes out there cannot just learn to get along with the rest of the population.
Last edited by SASless; 31st Aug 2005 at 12:14.
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emergov
A bigot is someone who's prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others. eg You're so convinced your view is right that you're intolerant of people expressing a different view, and even resort to calling them rednecks.
Is it bigoted to express disapproval of behaviour of any sort? Are we required to keep an open mind about everything if we are to avoid being accused of bigotry?
vortexstate
I've tried to see how what Bronx said can reasonably be (mis)interprereted as suggesting that all perverts are gay. He said nothing of the sort.
I'm interested in your 21st Century point. Are you suggesting that new is necessarily better? Should people change their views because they're told their existing views are no longer politically correct? Are all long-established standards of behaviour necessarily wrong?
What does "lingering in denial" mean? People whose opinions aren't in line with what they are now told they should think?
"no tolerance for their neighbour"
Are you perhaps confusing tolerance with approval? I can tolerate people doing all sorts of things even though I don't approve of what they do.
"bigots - that's means intolerant and close-minded, for all you rednecks out there - on this forum.
Is it bigoted to express disapproval of behaviour of any sort? Are we required to keep an open mind about everything if we are to avoid being accused of bigotry?
vortexstate
I've tried to see how what Bronx said can reasonably be (mis)interprereted as suggesting that all perverts are gay. He said nothing of the sort.
I'm interested in your 21st Century point. Are you suggesting that new is necessarily better? Should people change their views because they're told their existing views are no longer politically correct? Are all long-established standards of behaviour necessarily wrong?
What does "lingering in denial" mean? People whose opinions aren't in line with what they are now told they should think?
"no tolerance for their neighbour"
Are you perhaps confusing tolerance with approval? I can tolerate people doing all sorts of things even though I don't approve of what they do.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 31st Aug 2005 at 16:12.
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As a heterosexual male, I wouldn't want to be be put in a situation where I might be obliged to share a communal bathroom with a bloke who might get some homosexual gratification from such a situation.
Why should I (or the silent majority like me, as I am no longer part of the military) be put in such a situation, which in my opinion goes totally against good order and discipline?
Or will heterosexual men be allowed to use the ladies bathroom if they prefer, in order not to show any prejudice?
Why should I (or the silent majority like me, as I am no longer part of the military) be put in such a situation, which in my opinion goes totally against good order and discipline?
Or will heterosexual men be allowed to use the ladies bathroom if they prefer, in order not to show any prejudice?
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Poofters
I am gay; I know other gay pilots. I do not fit the stereotypical handbagging 'Are you being served' gay that many on this forum seem only to recognise. I was in the forces, still drink beer in vast quantities, played rugby, and generally act like a 'normal' bloke - such that those not knowing me are sometimes left literally speechless to find me in a homosexual relationship.
The military panicked about the influence gays might have on good order and discipline (good God that married heterosexual might find out he also fancies blokes!), or Alexander the Great may abuse his position to abuse the cutest batman ..... As if there are no affairs or favours in the heterosexual military world. And someone in the forum thinks that I might get excited should I share a room with him! How presumptious. Richard Cranium. He probably thinks we are incapable of flying, managing or even making a decision. How insulting.
I have never seen a gay get into a fight because of excess alcohol, unlike the disgusting scenes of many drunken heterosexuals. In the military many heterosexuals watched the inevitable porno movies ... many seemed excited by anal sex - which seem to form the vast majority of scenes. How hypocritical to claim how unnatural this act might be. And to infer that we gays like animals or children is just pathetic; unless of course you subscribe to the Germain Greer philosophy of the male species desiring only to empty its ball bag into the nearest available receptacle.
The penalty of any democracy is 'I am right and you are wrong' - I do not wish to thrust gay pride on you; but please therefore give us no reason to want to shout out against all the prejudice and hatred. You could of course hang us - they do that in other reputable societies - Iran has just hung two teenagers for homosexuality, and there are more awaiting execution:
And as for exposure of flesh - the photographs shown are no different to many of the rugby tours I did - drunken hairy men wearing wigs, underpants, exposing what they hadn't got etc etc
We've been around for centuries and will continue to be here until the asexual female appears, but I will desist otherwise I'd go on for hours .... I simply ask for tolerance, you know show the other cheek ....
(If you know me ... then you'll know I couldn't resist but reply!)
The military panicked about the influence gays might have on good order and discipline (good God that married heterosexual might find out he also fancies blokes!), or Alexander the Great may abuse his position to abuse the cutest batman ..... As if there are no affairs or favours in the heterosexual military world. And someone in the forum thinks that I might get excited should I share a room with him! How presumptious. Richard Cranium. He probably thinks we are incapable of flying, managing or even making a decision. How insulting.
I have never seen a gay get into a fight because of excess alcohol, unlike the disgusting scenes of many drunken heterosexuals. In the military many heterosexuals watched the inevitable porno movies ... many seemed excited by anal sex - which seem to form the vast majority of scenes. How hypocritical to claim how unnatural this act might be. And to infer that we gays like animals or children is just pathetic; unless of course you subscribe to the Germain Greer philosophy of the male species desiring only to empty its ball bag into the nearest available receptacle.
The penalty of any democracy is 'I am right and you are wrong' - I do not wish to thrust gay pride on you; but please therefore give us no reason to want to shout out against all the prejudice and hatred. You could of course hang us - they do that in other reputable societies - Iran has just hung two teenagers for homosexuality, and there are more awaiting execution:
And as for exposure of flesh - the photographs shown are no different to many of the rugby tours I did - drunken hairy men wearing wigs, underpants, exposing what they hadn't got etc etc
We've been around for centuries and will continue to be here until the asexual female appears, but I will desist otherwise I'd go on for hours .... I simply ask for tolerance, you know show the other cheek ....
(If you know me ... then you'll know I couldn't resist but reply!)
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Richard Cranium?
Rot8tor
"And someone in the forum thinks that I might get excited should I share a room with him! How presumptious. Richard Cranium. He probably thinks we are incapable of flying, managing or even making a decision. How insulting."
I am very possibly the someone you refer to, as my post mentioned a BATHroom, not just any room. I merely expect to be able to go to the bathroom without the concern of a possible sexual advance, in exactly the same way that a female would be concerned if a heterosexual male used the same bathroom as she.
You took one quote in isolation, then add further quotes from your own agenda and claim I have insulted you by "probably thinking" them. You insult yourself as well as myself. Your claims have absolutely no justification.
I never accused you of fighting and have never disgusted anyone by drunken fighting myself. I have never accused you or any homosexual of liking animals or little boys. I have no hatred of homosexual men and have never said you should be hanged for being homosexual (lucky you aren't an Iraqi, eh?).
You insult me and make false accusations, but then call ME a Dick Head? How do you expect to be credible and accepted?
Rot8tor
"And someone in the forum thinks that I might get excited should I share a room with him! How presumptious. Richard Cranium. He probably thinks we are incapable of flying, managing or even making a decision. How insulting."
I am very possibly the someone you refer to, as my post mentioned a BATHroom, not just any room. I merely expect to be able to go to the bathroom without the concern of a possible sexual advance, in exactly the same way that a female would be concerned if a heterosexual male used the same bathroom as she.
You took one quote in isolation, then add further quotes from your own agenda and claim I have insulted you by "probably thinking" them. You insult yourself as well as myself. Your claims have absolutely no justification.
I never accused you of fighting and have never disgusted anyone by drunken fighting myself. I have never accused you or any homosexual of liking animals or little boys. I have no hatred of homosexual men and have never said you should be hanged for being homosexual (lucky you aren't an Iraqi, eh?).
You insult me and make false accusations, but then call ME a Dick Head? How do you expect to be credible and accepted?
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ShyTorque,
You served in the Military and you don't think that you have already showered with gay males........
Bet you have and not known it!
Not all us gays are trying to convert you straights......
You served in the Military and you don't think that you have already showered with gay males........
Bet you have and not known it!
Not all us gays are trying to convert you straights......
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I knew at least two for certain, one was my crewman, not that I showered with him though. I believe we held a mutual respect for each other's view and our professional ability.
Although at the time he could never have admitted it, I suspected he might be homosexual by his attitude to women. I was later proved correct.
There is no chance of me being converted, btw. I'm a lost cause.
Although at the time he could never have admitted it, I suspected he might be homosexual by his attitude to women. I was later proved correct.
There is no chance of me being converted, btw. I'm a lost cause.
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Shy Torque, me old fruit
One minute you say you suspected the crewman but he could never admit it ... and the next that you respected each others point of view .... how do you do that without talking? Or are you worried you may be accused of aidsing and abetting?
Yours happened to be the last post when I replied ... but my frustration had welled up reading the three pages before that - don't take all the points upon your own head. I certainly do not wish to 'convert' you ... that's left to RC priests!
My only agenda is to try and educate people that we are not untouchables, we live amongst you ... Instead of gay prides I would prefer to be accepted, as a minority, but WITHIN our society.
The thinking is that 5-8% of the population has homosexual leanings, yet even amongst, say, our professional footballers no-one dare admit to being gay due to the vile ribbing they would no doubt receive .... the statistics suggest they are there though (I have no doubt!).
I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is.
That reflects the lie I lived for many years due to the institutional thinking that still dogs many sectors of our supposedly civilised community. I will leave ppruners to judge my comments and convictions. Enough I retire, hurt .... awaiting the Ashes victory!
Yours happened to be the last post when I replied ... but my frustration had welled up reading the three pages before that - don't take all the points upon your own head. I certainly do not wish to 'convert' you ... that's left to RC priests!
My only agenda is to try and educate people that we are not untouchables, we live amongst you ... Instead of gay prides I would prefer to be accepted, as a minority, but WITHIN our society.
The thinking is that 5-8% of the population has homosexual leanings, yet even amongst, say, our professional footballers no-one dare admit to being gay due to the vile ribbing they would no doubt receive .... the statistics suggest they are there though (I have no doubt!).
I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is.
That reflects the lie I lived for many years due to the institutional thinking that still dogs many sectors of our supposedly civilised community. I will leave ppruners to judge my comments and convictions. Enough I retire, hurt .... awaiting the Ashes victory!
Quite agreed DietHelm....and my favorite ride was entered from the rear too. Big ol' hole it was....slippery too...especially when wet. Talking Chinooks here folks....get yer mind out of the gutter!
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Time for a new moderator.
Why is this **** even in this forum. We come here to chat about work not this crap. Nothing in this thread is remotely about aviation and many other better threads have been canned in the past for such transgressions.
Why is this **** even in this forum. We come here to chat about work not this crap. Nothing in this thread is remotely about aviation and many other better threads have been canned in the past for such transgressions.
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It's ironic, straight guys say they hate it when gay guys throw their gayness up in everyone's faces. But straight guys do just that all the time. They're always strutting around, bragging about their latest sexual conquest, or making raunchy comments about a particular girl's attributes. Not to mention the fact that every straight guy seems to want to have sex with just about EVERY girl he sees and never fails to mention this. Why is that? Why do straight guys have to announce and reaffirm their straightness all the time?
Among other straight males, this is considered quite "normal" and accepted behavior. But no, you don't want me to throw *my* sexuality up in your face. How about returning the favor? Oh, but that's different.
The other strange thing is that some consider being gay a choice. We only need to turn that around and ask the straight people among us, did you choose to be straight? Could you really choose to be otherwise? If not, why do you assume a gay male makes that choice.
Yes, I am gay and I am a pilot. You would never know it if I did not tell you, and I do not tell you if it is none of your business. I have to put up with endless insulting fag-jokes. Pilots are a homophobic group.
I have been in situations where I showered and shared bathrooms with other, unsuspecting(!) males. Through some gargantuan effort of self-control on my part, I have managed to not molest any of them. No propositions or come-ons either. But it is curious that so many supposedly "straight" men feel so paranoid and threatened. Is the word "no" in your vocabulary? Do you know how to use it? Or...is it that you perhaps think that you might be powerless to resist? I have been propositioned by many women already, sometimes quite vigorously! I just smile and say "no thanks." I do not take insult or threaten them with bodily harm or arrest. You see I'm comfortable in my sexuality.
I have no idea why people are straight or gay. I only know what I am, and I know that I did not have a choice in the matter. And I also know that our prejudices, biases and beliefs are mainly handed down to us by our parents. Some we question, others we don't. It's easy to claim that homosexuality is a crime against nature, but there is little strong evidence to support that claim. Aside from purely personal feelings, objections to homosexuality come, primarily, from the Bible and our Christian-based society. But what if I do not subscribe to your Bible? Or any Bible for that matter? That might sentence me to hell after I die, but how should that affect how I'm treated in this life?
If I was a straight guy, I'd wish every other male on the planet was gay. More women for me!
P.S. to Chairmanofthebored: The thread title clearly indicates it is about recruiting gays in the military. You did not have to click on it, nor did you have to read every post. ...Or did you?
Among other straight males, this is considered quite "normal" and accepted behavior. But no, you don't want me to throw *my* sexuality up in your face. How about returning the favor? Oh, but that's different.
The other strange thing is that some consider being gay a choice. We only need to turn that around and ask the straight people among us, did you choose to be straight? Could you really choose to be otherwise? If not, why do you assume a gay male makes that choice.
Yes, I am gay and I am a pilot. You would never know it if I did not tell you, and I do not tell you if it is none of your business. I have to put up with endless insulting fag-jokes. Pilots are a homophobic group.
I have been in situations where I showered and shared bathrooms with other, unsuspecting(!) males. Through some gargantuan effort of self-control on my part, I have managed to not molest any of them. No propositions or come-ons either. But it is curious that so many supposedly "straight" men feel so paranoid and threatened. Is the word "no" in your vocabulary? Do you know how to use it? Or...is it that you perhaps think that you might be powerless to resist? I have been propositioned by many women already, sometimes quite vigorously! I just smile and say "no thanks." I do not take insult or threaten them with bodily harm or arrest. You see I'm comfortable in my sexuality.
I have no idea why people are straight or gay. I only know what I am, and I know that I did not have a choice in the matter. And I also know that our prejudices, biases and beliefs are mainly handed down to us by our parents. Some we question, others we don't. It's easy to claim that homosexuality is a crime against nature, but there is little strong evidence to support that claim. Aside from purely personal feelings, objections to homosexuality come, primarily, from the Bible and our Christian-based society. But what if I do not subscribe to your Bible? Or any Bible for that matter? That might sentence me to hell after I die, but how should that affect how I'm treated in this life?
If I was a straight guy, I'd wish every other male on the planet was gay. More women for me!
P.S. to Chairmanofthebored: The thread title clearly indicates it is about recruiting gays in the military. You did not have to click on it, nor did you have to read every post. ...Or did you?
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Rot8tor,
"One minute you say you suspected the crewman but he could never admit it ... and the next that you respected each others point of view .... how do you do that without talking? Or are you worried you may be accused of aidsing and abetting?"
Not sure what you mean by that, especially "aidsing and abetting" An unfortunate Freudian slip....?
Seriously, at that time, because of the circumstances prevailing within the services it was NOT a subject to be discussed. If I were to have asked a serviceman under my command, if he was of "another persuasion", or announced that I thought he was so, even in private, it would have been seen as a very great insult, especially so if he was in fact heterosexual. Even if I was correct, it would have been very unlikely that he would admit it as if it may have even resulted in him being dismissed from the services! Whatever the truth, it would quite possibly have resulted in a formal complaint against myself.
I therefore kept my suspicions to myself and never passed comment on the subject to anyone. He and I had actually a very good working relationship and because of his professional ability, I chose to work with him on a number of occasions, including single aircraft / single crew detachments. I stood up for him on at least two occasions when he was being criticised by others (once I thought unfairly, once because he made a professional mistake). On detachment I often preferred his company because he was very polite and had a great sense of humour. What more could I have done?
Some time after I left the services, a certain senior pilot "came out" under the public gaze and this other individual decided to take this opportunity to do the same while it was in the media highlight. My suspicion was therefore correct.
I wouldn't have wanted to share a bathroom with him, that's all.
"One minute you say you suspected the crewman but he could never admit it ... and the next that you respected each others point of view .... how do you do that without talking? Or are you worried you may be accused of aidsing and abetting?"
Not sure what you mean by that, especially "aidsing and abetting" An unfortunate Freudian slip....?
Seriously, at that time, because of the circumstances prevailing within the services it was NOT a subject to be discussed. If I were to have asked a serviceman under my command, if he was of "another persuasion", or announced that I thought he was so, even in private, it would have been seen as a very great insult, especially so if he was in fact heterosexual. Even if I was correct, it would have been very unlikely that he would admit it as if it may have even resulted in him being dismissed from the services! Whatever the truth, it would quite possibly have resulted in a formal complaint against myself.
I therefore kept my suspicions to myself and never passed comment on the subject to anyone. He and I had actually a very good working relationship and because of his professional ability, I chose to work with him on a number of occasions, including single aircraft / single crew detachments. I stood up for him on at least two occasions when he was being criticised by others (once I thought unfairly, once because he made a professional mistake). On detachment I often preferred his company because he was very polite and had a great sense of humour. What more could I have done?
Some time after I left the services, a certain senior pilot "came out" under the public gaze and this other individual decided to take this opportunity to do the same while it was in the media highlight. My suspicion was therefore correct.
I wouldn't have wanted to share a bathroom with him, that's all.
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To those calling for censorship:
Regulars will know we very rarely delete posts/threads on this forum. When we do, it’s almost always because of personal attacks, bad language, libel or advertising.
This thread has a link to helicopters because the services employ helicopter pilots. The link is tenuous, but it’s there.
With some unfortunate exceptions, discussion of this sensitive topic about which many people have strong views in opposite directions has been conducted in a mature fashion without childish name-calling.
The subject of the thread couldn’t be clearer from the title. Those not interested in reading what others have said or not wishing to make a contribution to the debate can simply move on to topics which interest them or start a new one.
When topics don’t generate interest, they die through inactivity. This subject has generated 50+ posts and 2500+ views in four days so is far from inactive. When it runs out of steam, it will fall away naturally.
We prefer that method to censorship.
Heliport
Regulars will know we very rarely delete posts/threads on this forum. When we do, it’s almost always because of personal attacks, bad language, libel or advertising.
This thread has a link to helicopters because the services employ helicopter pilots. The link is tenuous, but it’s there.
With some unfortunate exceptions, discussion of this sensitive topic about which many people have strong views in opposite directions has been conducted in a mature fashion without childish name-calling.
The subject of the thread couldn’t be clearer from the title. Those not interested in reading what others have said or not wishing to make a contribution to the debate can simply move on to topics which interest them or start a new one.
When topics don’t generate interest, they die through inactivity. This subject has generated 50+ posts and 2500+ views in four days so is far from inactive. When it runs out of steam, it will fall away naturally.
We prefer that method to censorship.
Heliport
I applaud Heliport for having the courage to allow such a thread on Rotorheads. The topic under discussion is timely, of value, and serves a good purpose. Any rational discussion of controversial issues proves interesting and as long as opposite viewpoints can be considered for their merits and those arguing their views can remain polite and respect the other person's right to their opinion, there is no reason we should not have similar threads in the future.
As Heliport knows, I hold different views than he on some other sensitive issues that are forbidden topics here at pprune, but I still respect him greatly despite our having opposed views. I would suggest anyone that thinks Heliport is remiss in his responsibilities as a Moderator here....surely misses the point of why the thread exists.
No one is obliged to engage in discourse here....if you do not like the topic....move on to one that does interest you.
Heliport has done an admirable job of moderating Rotorheads and serves as an example to other Mods here at pprune. I just wish some others could learn from him as it would make other forums much more enjoyable.
We do not have to agree folks....if we did it would be a very dull world to live in. We do have to allow others to offer their opinions even if we do not agree with them. Take issue with the concepts and thoughts offered...but show the courtesy of allowing them to speak without resorting to impolite behaviour in your response.
Keep after it Heliport....you got my vote and support.
(I prefer Theakstons if you please!)
As Heliport knows, I hold different views than he on some other sensitive issues that are forbidden topics here at pprune, but I still respect him greatly despite our having opposed views. I would suggest anyone that thinks Heliport is remiss in his responsibilities as a Moderator here....surely misses the point of why the thread exists.
No one is obliged to engage in discourse here....if you do not like the topic....move on to one that does interest you.
Heliport has done an admirable job of moderating Rotorheads and serves as an example to other Mods here at pprune. I just wish some others could learn from him as it would make other forums much more enjoyable.
We do not have to agree folks....if we did it would be a very dull world to live in. We do have to allow others to offer their opinions even if we do not agree with them. Take issue with the concepts and thoughts offered...but show the courtesy of allowing them to speak without resorting to impolite behaviour in your response.
Keep after it Heliport....you got my vote and support.
(I prefer Theakstons if you please!)