How much do helicopter pilots earn?
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Very good debate,
But surely pilots themselves are their own worse enemy. There was a comment previously about Doctors and Lawyers and the public not being preceiving Proffessional pilots as in the same category as Doctors and Lawyers, but isn't that down to education of the public, and raising their awareness of the role that Pro Helo pilots play in society.
By working for free it is not helping the cause for anybody, newwbies and oldbies alike, where does the working for free eventually end? Ok at the moment it starts with newbbies doing stuff for free to get 'a foot in the door' then that's never enough so then people start working for free for those operators requiring 1500+ hours, until ultimately those of you in your comfortable flying positions become threatened by newbbies (in the 5, 6 or more thousand hour area) saying oh we'll do that for free or a reduction in salary. Isn't that devaluing your position of pro helo pilots in the industry and in public perception. Consider that does joe public think of the 'proffessions' as a wow factor job like Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, Pharmacist, Airline Pilot (oo sensitive area) purely in the basis of the job itself, or is in to do in some way the amount of money one gets paid. Look at clothes designers for example, they are not necessarily any better than your bog standard off the peg, but somehow the 'designer' has managed to market themselves as a desirable, ie putting the price up. How many times have you gone to a night club and been surprised at the entrance price, why is it, not because it's better than the local club down the road but it's perceived to be better because it costs more?
Now i'm not advocating unions, but there must be something organise that is to the benefit of all concerned in the industry newbbies and oldbies alike. Why not make use of organisations like BHAB in helping to raise awareness and perception of the whole, industry. how many of the general public look at helo pilots as rich a$$ posers? I would suggest quite a few, as the majority of the public are not aware of the roles helo pilots play in modern society.
But surely pilots themselves are their own worse enemy. There was a comment previously about Doctors and Lawyers and the public not being preceiving Proffessional pilots as in the same category as Doctors and Lawyers, but isn't that down to education of the public, and raising their awareness of the role that Pro Helo pilots play in society.
By working for free it is not helping the cause for anybody, newwbies and oldbies alike, where does the working for free eventually end? Ok at the moment it starts with newbbies doing stuff for free to get 'a foot in the door' then that's never enough so then people start working for free for those operators requiring 1500+ hours, until ultimately those of you in your comfortable flying positions become threatened by newbbies (in the 5, 6 or more thousand hour area) saying oh we'll do that for free or a reduction in salary. Isn't that devaluing your position of pro helo pilots in the industry and in public perception. Consider that does joe public think of the 'proffessions' as a wow factor job like Doctor, Lawyer, Teacher, Pharmacist, Airline Pilot (oo sensitive area) purely in the basis of the job itself, or is in to do in some way the amount of money one gets paid. Look at clothes designers for example, they are not necessarily any better than your bog standard off the peg, but somehow the 'designer' has managed to market themselves as a desirable, ie putting the price up. How many times have you gone to a night club and been surprised at the entrance price, why is it, not because it's better than the local club down the road but it's perceived to be better because it costs more?
Now i'm not advocating unions, but there must be something organise that is to the benefit of all concerned in the industry newbbies and oldbies alike. Why not make use of organisations like BHAB in helping to raise awareness and perception of the whole, industry. how many of the general public look at helo pilots as rich a$$ posers? I would suggest quite a few, as the majority of the public are not aware of the roles helo pilots play in modern society.
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Oligophrenic choice. . . . . .
Question: On who would you likely see a sign such as the following but with the sentence "will work for food"?
On a bum right? So what's the difference?
Anybody who spends a large amount of money into getting training to obtain a position for which you end up working for free (even for a short while) has to be OLIGOPHRENIC.
There is a limit and difference on "dreaming of becoming a pilot" and just being and dumb and desperate because of bad judgement, its not like flying is the only rewarding thing in the world, some people who like to fly but can't or don't want to do it professionally just work hard and make money to fly for pleasure. I am sure this can be even more rewarding in several aspects.
Particularly true when to achive your own interest you hurt another's interest and the industry you so desperately want to join.
Just in case:
http://www.fasthealth.com/dictionary/o/oligophrenic.php
On a bum right? So what's the difference?
Anybody who spends a large amount of money into getting training to obtain a position for which you end up working for free (even for a short while) has to be OLIGOPHRENIC.
There is a limit and difference on "dreaming of becoming a pilot" and just being and dumb and desperate because of bad judgement, its not like flying is the only rewarding thing in the world, some people who like to fly but can't or don't want to do it professionally just work hard and make money to fly for pleasure. I am sure this can be even more rewarding in several aspects.
Particularly true when to achive your own interest you hurt another's interest and the industry you so desperately want to join.
Just in case:
http://www.fasthealth.com/dictionary/o/oligophrenic.php
Last edited by BlenderPilot; 17th Sep 2003 at 07:38.
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Maybe if we call it working "pro bono" we can at least compare ourselves to lawyers, and if we do the work with a CFI on board we can be "interns" 
My first post here, and probably on one of the most contentious issues... and nothing to contribute
[returns to lurking...]
My first post here, and probably on one of the most contentious issues... and nothing to contribute
[returns to lurking...]
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BlenderPilot:
mental retardation...interesting point..
To confuse matters In the Aero Engineering industry, one works during the summer to gain experience, then afterwards goes for badly paid slave labour intern 'work experience' positions just to get a foot in...but is it not any different to working for free to get hours for pro helo pilot? Perhaps not so as expensive! But still
1. It didn't cost me the the same type of money to get my 4 year degree as it would my 9 month CPL(H), although i still owe the money for my degree.
2 I think the potential earnings are far higher earlier on for engineering, but it ain't as fun!
Hiro P:
A Neal Stephenson fan i see...love his books..now if i did IT then i wouldn't need to worry i'd just pay for myself and most likely work for free! But i ain't so i can't so i wouldn't!
EDIT
While i am here, and it's a little off topic, but do i understand correctly that a CPL(H) on average is around 140hrs, but in order to get a FI job, so you can start to earn money, you need 300hrs, but you can't get paid for the 'in between' 160 hours (if you did you'd be a lucky barstool)? Any clarification?
mental retardation...interesting point..
To confuse matters In the Aero Engineering industry, one works during the summer to gain experience, then afterwards goes for badly paid slave labour intern 'work experience' positions just to get a foot in...but is it not any different to working for free to get hours for pro helo pilot? Perhaps not so as expensive! But still
1. It didn't cost me the the same type of money to get my 4 year degree as it would my 9 month CPL(H), although i still owe the money for my degree.
2 I think the potential earnings are far higher earlier on for engineering, but it ain't as fun!
Hiro P:
A Neal Stephenson fan i see...love his books..now if i did IT then i wouldn't need to worry i'd just pay for myself and most likely work for free! But i ain't so i can't so i wouldn't!
EDIT
While i am here, and it's a little off topic, but do i understand correctly that a CPL(H) on average is around 140hrs, but in order to get a FI job, so you can start to earn money, you need 300hrs, but you can't get paid for the 'in between' 160 hours (if you did you'd be a lucky barstool)? Any clarification?
Helislave,
That's not off-topic at all, that's a huge reason why people work for free - the great god Hours.
I like your idea of designer prices making things more desirable:
I'm available any time, anywhere, 500 quid an hour. And I'll even throw in an RJ logo'd baseball cap.
That should get me up to my 1500 hours in a trice!
That's not off-topic at all, that's a huge reason why people work for free - the great god Hours.
I like your idea of designer prices making things more desirable:
I'm available any time, anywhere, 500 quid an hour. And I'll even throw in an RJ logo'd baseball cap.
That should get me up to my 1500 hours in a trice!
If you do do a "commercial" fight for nothing you are a thief. You are stealing a job from someone who has probably mortgaged themselves to the hilt to get the qualification and may have a family to feed. It has the same affect as breaking into their house and stealing the cash from their piggy bank. Just because you can afford to work for nothing doesn't justify you pushing yourself in front of everyone else in the queue and stealing the work.
It is also similar to athletes taking substances to allow them to beat others - plain cheating.
You should apply for jobs on your merit and not on how much you prostitute yourself.
In the long term you are doing yourself a big disfavour. Once you have got the experience, your job may be put at risk by others flying for free.
Yes we were all newbies to begin with but I can hold my head up and say that I got to where I am now without resorting to underhand tactics -- WILL YOU BE ABLE TO??
Lets outlaw this nasty practice and allow pilots to be paid the wage they deserve.
PS The use of the word "prostitute" above is inappropriate. Even prostitutes would refuse to work for nothing
It is also similar to athletes taking substances to allow them to beat others - plain cheating.
You should apply for jobs on your merit and not on how much you prostitute yourself.
In the long term you are doing yourself a big disfavour. Once you have got the experience, your job may be put at risk by others flying for free.
Yes we were all newbies to begin with but I can hold my head up and say that I got to where I am now without resorting to underhand tactics -- WILL YOU BE ABLE TO??
Lets outlaw this nasty practice and allow pilots to be paid the wage they deserve.
PS The use of the word "prostitute" above is inappropriate. Even prostitutes would refuse to work for nothing
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Surely thre must be some way that, the rate of pay can be regulated, eg,
newly qualified pilots X £/€/$ per hour
300 hrs pilots X+Y £/€/$ per hour
1000 hrs pilots X+Y+Z £/€/$ per hour
then there is of course the possibility along the way of paying an additional sum over and above these requirements for those with extra qualifications, such as turbine, multi engine, IR, long line etc...that way operators that don't need some specialisations don't pay for it, and those that do need it do. Perhaps then after a certain threshold, hrs, experience etc, then it could open up to the 'cheaper' pilots after all competition is no bad thing.
This would sure be in everyones interest, pilots and operators alike, it would then be a known fixed cost. operators like these, it's better for business, pilots like these, they know the going rate and can then make funding themselves easier...they can say after i do this i get this - banks like it too. Of course notwithstanding if they get a job. The for opertators, wouldn't have such a big hold over pilots, they can compete on price, but on other items such as maint cost, operating cost, and not pilot wages.
hmm what's this a win-win scenario...it can't be have i missed something? The only thing i could be the downfall is who, what and how would calculate the 'going' rate?
newly qualified pilots X £/€/$ per hour
300 hrs pilots X+Y £/€/$ per hour
1000 hrs pilots X+Y+Z £/€/$ per hour
then there is of course the possibility along the way of paying an additional sum over and above these requirements for those with extra qualifications, such as turbine, multi engine, IR, long line etc...that way operators that don't need some specialisations don't pay for it, and those that do need it do. Perhaps then after a certain threshold, hrs, experience etc, then it could open up to the 'cheaper' pilots after all competition is no bad thing.
This would sure be in everyones interest, pilots and operators alike, it would then be a known fixed cost. operators like these, it's better for business, pilots like these, they know the going rate and can then make funding themselves easier...they can say after i do this i get this - banks like it too. Of course notwithstanding if they get a job. The for opertators, wouldn't have such a big hold over pilots, they can compete on price, but on other items such as maint cost, operating cost, and not pilot wages.
hmm what's this a win-win scenario...it can't be have i missed something? The only thing i could be the downfall is who, what and how would calculate the 'going' rate?
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Be Careful What You Wish For
If we think carefully, there are few desirable jobs where we do not "work for free" or are "underpaid" in our earlier years. A doctor spends 4 years in undergraduate, 3 years in Med School, 2 years in internship where he works 18 hours a day for less than a helicopter pilot and then 2 years in a residency for his specialty with little pay. Is he scum to the seasoned doctors with experience? No, it is simply part of the training to end up where he is going.
Take lawyers, its the same, get out of law school and you will bill 2500 hours per year for six years before becoming a partner and starting to become compensated "fairly" for their work.
I have a Commercial license but I do not fly for a living. Am I scum because a pilot being paid asks me to come along to ferry an aircraft which I shall do for free. Did I take someones job, or am I simply trying to build enough time so that I can be assured of attaining insurance for a personal aircraft. Is it unreasonable to think that the "pay" to me for that trip is reduced cost of insurance and a reduced cost of staying proficient. How do we define "pay"
Most markets are fairly efficient. The reason people in this industry are not paid well is because despite what people say, there are more people willing to take the jobs than there are jobs. Until that changes, wages will be low. Do not count on it changing because flying other peoples helicopters every day beats the blank out of sitting in the office fighting with morons.
I grind away in the office every day to make a reasonable living and it is not very fun. However, the pay afforded to me if I was well employed in the Rotorcraft industry could not keep the boss (wife) happy. It is the facts, it is my choice just as it is your choice. If I won the lottery I would quit and put my Commercial to use, or maybe become a porn star, it is a toss up.
If you want less jobs and more people complaining, try the thought of price controls or minimum wages. The industry can barely sustain itself due to the cost of airframes, spares, fuel and insurance. Force a raise in costs of personnel and there will be some jobs helicopters do now, that will not be done by helicopters simply because it becomes uneconomical. It is a harsh reality but it is the truth that has been proven time and time again. Now, there are opererators taking advantage and attaining above industry norm returns, but over time, the employees figure it out and put an end to it.
I am very envious of those who fly every day and are paid for it. The pay is what it is, and will remain so. If anyone is getting into this business thinking pay will grow significantly greater than inflation is simply evaluating the industry with your heart and not your mind. You have a great life and will have tons of stories to tell. You chose a great career that has rewards not measured in dollars.
When flying becomes no fun, pay will rise. Until that time, eveyone should simply realize that it is a competitive world and if you want to end up in this industry, flying for "free" is just part of attaining your ticket.
Flame away.............
If we think carefully, there are few desirable jobs where we do not "work for free" or are "underpaid" in our earlier years. A doctor spends 4 years in undergraduate, 3 years in Med School, 2 years in internship where he works 18 hours a day for less than a helicopter pilot and then 2 years in a residency for his specialty with little pay. Is he scum to the seasoned doctors with experience? No, it is simply part of the training to end up where he is going.
Take lawyers, its the same, get out of law school and you will bill 2500 hours per year for six years before becoming a partner and starting to become compensated "fairly" for their work.
I have a Commercial license but I do not fly for a living. Am I scum because a pilot being paid asks me to come along to ferry an aircraft which I shall do for free. Did I take someones job, or am I simply trying to build enough time so that I can be assured of attaining insurance for a personal aircraft. Is it unreasonable to think that the "pay" to me for that trip is reduced cost of insurance and a reduced cost of staying proficient. How do we define "pay"
Most markets are fairly efficient. The reason people in this industry are not paid well is because despite what people say, there are more people willing to take the jobs than there are jobs. Until that changes, wages will be low. Do not count on it changing because flying other peoples helicopters every day beats the blank out of sitting in the office fighting with morons.
I grind away in the office every day to make a reasonable living and it is not very fun. However, the pay afforded to me if I was well employed in the Rotorcraft industry could not keep the boss (wife) happy. It is the facts, it is my choice just as it is your choice. If I won the lottery I would quit and put my Commercial to use, or maybe become a porn star, it is a toss up.
If you want less jobs and more people complaining, try the thought of price controls or minimum wages. The industry can barely sustain itself due to the cost of airframes, spares, fuel and insurance. Force a raise in costs of personnel and there will be some jobs helicopters do now, that will not be done by helicopters simply because it becomes uneconomical. It is a harsh reality but it is the truth that has been proven time and time again. Now, there are opererators taking advantage and attaining above industry norm returns, but over time, the employees figure it out and put an end to it.
I am very envious of those who fly every day and are paid for it. The pay is what it is, and will remain so. If anyone is getting into this business thinking pay will grow significantly greater than inflation is simply evaluating the industry with your heart and not your mind. You have a great life and will have tons of stories to tell. You chose a great career that has rewards not measured in dollars.
When flying becomes no fun, pay will rise. Until that time, eveyone should simply realize that it is a competitive world and if you want to end up in this industry, flying for "free" is just part of attaining your ticket.
Flame away.............
The Original Whirly
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diethelm,
SPOT ON!!!!
I'm getting bloody sick to death of the threads on both here and the Instructors forum flaming anyone who commits that terrible awful sin of WORKING FOR FREE!!!!
Shut up, grow up, and stop moaning. This is a horrendously competitive industry, and people get on in it the same way that loads of other people get on in the world, by clawing their way up by their bootlaces, in whatever way they see best. Is the shopkeeper who sells at below cost price to get going and get known a lousy thief...or a canny entrepreneur? Is the builder who starts off by undercutting the competition stupid, or farsighted? Is someone who takes on a career requiring years and years of undergraduate work followed by postgrad followed by being next to a slave on a pittance (like the lawyers and doctors already mentioned) an idiot, or simply accepting reality? Is the actor or artist or writer or musician who starves for years to do what they love a lunatic or a genius? It's no bloody different!!!!!!!! It's the way of the world. And if you don't like it, fight back some other way, or insist on being unionised, or come up with a good alternative. But whatever you do, STOP MOANING AND RANTING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(And I've already said that I personally wouldn't choose to work for free, if you look back, so don't bother attacking me personally.)
SPOT ON!!!!
I'm getting bloody sick to death of the threads on both here and the Instructors forum flaming anyone who commits that terrible awful sin of WORKING FOR FREE!!!!
Shut up, grow up, and stop moaning. This is a horrendously competitive industry, and people get on in it the same way that loads of other people get on in the world, by clawing their way up by their bootlaces, in whatever way they see best. Is the shopkeeper who sells at below cost price to get going and get known a lousy thief...or a canny entrepreneur? Is the builder who starts off by undercutting the competition stupid, or farsighted? Is someone who takes on a career requiring years and years of undergraduate work followed by postgrad followed by being next to a slave on a pittance (like the lawyers and doctors already mentioned) an idiot, or simply accepting reality? Is the actor or artist or writer or musician who starves for years to do what they love a lunatic or a genius? It's no bloody different!!!!!!!! It's the way of the world. And if you don't like it, fight back some other way, or insist on being unionised, or come up with a good alternative. But whatever you do, STOP MOANING AND RANTING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(And I've already said that I personally wouldn't choose to work for free, if you look back, so don't bother attacking me personally.)
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I also agree, and have said in the past that if I took a job for what high timers would consider undermining them, that that job was a step up for me, both in pay, and actually flying for a living.
Quandry: one needs hours.
Hours are offered, some I pay to get, others I'll take for "free", not really free, I'm logging legitamite time in my book, no armchair
time for this lad.
So I take it, and get scoffed by high time pilots who wouldn't accept that job for "free", or for whatever they may be offered to do it (would that cost be too low? Well, the point is that those who use the arguement that I'll do it for free are those who will reject any sum unless disproportionally high, which leads me back to my statement about a pay raise if I take it).
I leave this topic the way I always do, if those who feel us low timers are taking the jobs for free, or for a vastly underpaid status, what is your alternative that will allow us to build time and not offend you in the process?
So far, none has been tendered, internships and corporate training programs are not enabled, because as of yet, the operators do not see the need to outlay the $$$ for such, they will lower hiring standards to grab those of us approaching them first ...
(Right now RW-1 has completed his paperwork for his first job, but alas, is awaiting students to instruct ... but I'm not feeling that I'm undermining anyone there.)
Quandry: one needs hours.
Hours are offered, some I pay to get, others I'll take for "free", not really free, I'm logging legitamite time in my book, no armchair
time for this lad.
So I take it, and get scoffed by high time pilots who wouldn't accept that job for "free", or for whatever they may be offered to do it (would that cost be too low? Well, the point is that those who use the arguement that I'll do it for free are those who will reject any sum unless disproportionally high, which leads me back to my statement about a pay raise if I take it).
I leave this topic the way I always do, if those who feel us low timers are taking the jobs for free, or for a vastly underpaid status, what is your alternative that will allow us to build time and not offend you in the process?
So far, none has been tendered, internships and corporate training programs are not enabled, because as of yet, the operators do not see the need to outlay the $$$ for such, they will lower hiring standards to grab those of us approaching them first ...
(Right now RW-1 has completed his paperwork for his first job, but alas, is awaiting students to instruct ... but I'm not feeling that I'm undermining anyone there.)
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There is a difference between the way Doctors, Lawyers, or Businessmen get to the good stuff and the way pilots get to a decent job.
The difference is most of the Doctors, Lawyers, or Businessmen end up making a decent wage and make enough to retire on by the time they are 45 or 50, plus more importantly their professions require all that preparation and previous experience.
On the other hand many pilots today may start spending a fortune, then work for free or almost free for a while, and afterwards spend the rest of their life making enough to live day by day, and by the time they retire they barely make a living. And let's be real, with the right training you can make a pretty good pilots in a few months, the way the military does. (think 23 year old 400 hr. pilots landing 40 millon fighters in a carrier at night)
By reading some of the previous posts I can now see how helicopter pilots are on a much lower scale than "shrimp boat captains" in some countries where you have a bunch of people with a ton of cash and nothing else to do with their lives but go and be a pilot and then work for free.
The difference is most of the Doctors, Lawyers, or Businessmen end up making a decent wage and make enough to retire on by the time they are 45 or 50, plus more importantly their professions require all that preparation and previous experience.
On the other hand many pilots today may start spending a fortune, then work for free or almost free for a while, and afterwards spend the rest of their life making enough to live day by day, and by the time they retire they barely make a living. And let's be real, with the right training you can make a pretty good pilots in a few months, the way the military does. (think 23 year old 400 hr. pilots landing 40 millon fighters in a carrier at night)
By reading some of the previous posts I can now see how helicopter pilots are on a much lower scale than "shrimp boat captains" in some countries where you have a bunch of people with a ton of cash and nothing else to do with their lives but go and be a pilot and then work for free.
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Diethelm-Excellent post regarding this matter.
Monetary compensation has little relevance to my professionalism or self-esteem. Others have often received higher compensation for equal work and risk. So what? They negotiated a better deal. Good for them!
Many of my best friends are highly respected pilots who fly for the joy of flying and no other compensation. Many are at the top of their game in business, medicine, politics or law. So what? Good for them!
Helicopter flying was, is and always will be a highly competitive occupation. It is not that much different than any other profession in that regard. There are helicopter pilots who will always make more or less than their peers doing the same thing. There will be pilots who are better connected, better looking, more articulate or of greater means than other pilots. Ability and potential do not guarantee one a high paying position as a helicopter pilot. A pilot who chooses helicopters as a career path has no special employment or compensation rights over those who fly for the challange of flight or just plain fun.
I fly helicopters to meet girls and in that sense, I have been fairly compensated so perhaps I am biased.
Monetary compensation has little relevance to my professionalism or self-esteem. Others have often received higher compensation for equal work and risk. So what? They negotiated a better deal. Good for them!
Many of my best friends are highly respected pilots who fly for the joy of flying and no other compensation. Many are at the top of their game in business, medicine, politics or law. So what? Good for them!
Helicopter flying was, is and always will be a highly competitive occupation. It is not that much different than any other profession in that regard. There are helicopter pilots who will always make more or less than their peers doing the same thing. There will be pilots who are better connected, better looking, more articulate or of greater means than other pilots. Ability and potential do not guarantee one a high paying position as a helicopter pilot. A pilot who chooses helicopters as a career path has no special employment or compensation rights over those who fly for the challange of flight or just plain fun.
I fly helicopters to meet girls and in that sense, I have been fairly compensated so perhaps I am biased.
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Thanks for all replies constructive and just plain bizarre. Taking the food from the offspring of pilots to just being plain retarded. I thought this was an intelligent debate! Good luck to all seeking employment.
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Hughey wrote: "The idea of working for nothing, no pay just to build hours. I mentioned this to my instructor who said, "I would be viewed as scum", or words to that affect."
I would not consider you scum. I would view you as a person willing to do what it takes to realize a dream.
I often work for free. I often give seminars, write papers, and provide training without compensation to pilots who could not otherwise afford my services. Most do no consider me scum for doing so.
I would not consider you scum. I would view you as a person willing to do what it takes to realize a dream.
I often work for free. I often give seminars, write papers, and provide training without compensation to pilots who could not otherwise afford my services. Most do no consider me scum for doing so.
Surely two things are important..
(1) To be able to live, ideally comfortably
(2) To be able to do / achieve what you want.
I spent much time as an Engineering student / recent graduate working on a couple of charity/educational design programmes - it gained me a lot of experience that eventually got me the job I really wanted (bottom of the ladder in an FT department) - it got an educational charity a trained graduate engineer they wouldn't have had either.
I do a certain number of annual inspections and air tests on local private aircraft free because I can, enjoy it, and other people benefit; I'm even preparing a performance manual for a homebuilt for somebody for free, since it would otherwise cost the owner a substantial percentage of the value of his aeroplane. I don't see any more problem with that than Rich's seminars and free training, and anyway haven't the time to do enough to significantly effect anybody else's income.
The bottom line is that at any time the number of qualified pilots or engineers who can/will work for free are very few. So, it's never really going to affect the state of the industry much, but may in some circumstances allow a worthy cause to get something they couldn't otherwise afford, or a beginner the experience they need to start being able to live off it. I have no problem with that.
G
(1) To be able to live, ideally comfortably
(2) To be able to do / achieve what you want.
I spent much time as an Engineering student / recent graduate working on a couple of charity/educational design programmes - it gained me a lot of experience that eventually got me the job I really wanted (bottom of the ladder in an FT department) - it got an educational charity a trained graduate engineer they wouldn't have had either.
I do a certain number of annual inspections and air tests on local private aircraft free because I can, enjoy it, and other people benefit; I'm even preparing a performance manual for a homebuilt for somebody for free, since it would otherwise cost the owner a substantial percentage of the value of his aeroplane. I don't see any more problem with that than Rich's seminars and free training, and anyway haven't the time to do enough to significantly effect anybody else's income.
The bottom line is that at any time the number of qualified pilots or engineers who can/will work for free are very few. So, it's never really going to affect the state of the industry much, but may in some circumstances allow a worthy cause to get something they couldn't otherwise afford, or a beginner the experience they need to start being able to live off it. I have no problem with that.
G
Join Date: Dec 2001
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One Man's Scum is another Man's Economist......
If I go to Eurocopter in Texas it is 700/hr for an EC120 and 1,100/hr for an Astar.
So if I can tag along on a flight for an Astar, and build 3 hours, I am in essence being "paid" $3,300. That is the cost to me to build time in that aircraft if I was paying. Further, let us assume that my tax bracket including the myriad of employment taxes, income taxes use taxes and just silly taxes is 50%. It would take me $6600 in income to purchase those three hours.
My pay in this case is $6,600 or $2,200 per hour. I am pretty comfortable that there are very few 200 hour pilots who derive the economic equivalent of $2,200 per hour for flying around in an Astar.
Quite frankly, I think I am being overpaid for the benefit I derive.
If I go to Eurocopter in Texas it is 700/hr for an EC120 and 1,100/hr for an Astar.
So if I can tag along on a flight for an Astar, and build 3 hours, I am in essence being "paid" $3,300. That is the cost to me to build time in that aircraft if I was paying. Further, let us assume that my tax bracket including the myriad of employment taxes, income taxes use taxes and just silly taxes is 50%. It would take me $6600 in income to purchase those three hours.
My pay in this case is $6,600 or $2,200 per hour. I am pretty comfortable that there are very few 200 hour pilots who derive the economic equivalent of $2,200 per hour for flying around in an Astar.
Quite frankly, I think I am being overpaid for the benefit I derive.
Join Date: Nov 2002
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I said the same thing to a cab I hired, who got lost.......Now, I basically helped him find the way to where I was going, and he get's paid, let's say $10 an hour....the cost of the car would be $25.000, plus maintenance, let's say total of $50.000 over a 5 year period......add his salary over 5 years ( based on 2000 hours a year) = $100.000......A total of $150.000.....but wait, we need to include medical insurance...worth mayby $50.000 ? Total $200.000.....
Divide that with the man's inability to find the location....wait, I still had to pay....never mind
Divide that with the man's inability to find the location....wait, I still had to pay....never mind
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Munich, Germany
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Very true diethelm about not being paid to fly, but the pay is in another way, one that cannot be taxed! Hours!!! Which is the thing everybody needs. Also the benefit comes down the road when you have the hours that would have cost you a fortune when you land the job that requires those hours. hmmmm I see the point.
But the where is the dividing line, of being paid and not? You guys(and gals) with vast amount of experience on here, if you insisted on being paid for everything that's related to 1) your experience, or 2) helicopters, then the likes of guys like me would be in a worse situation because we would have to pay for, as i see it 'the priceless' information that you guys give us for free to help us on our way. Stuff that we would only see for a fee. Then surely this site wouldn't exist? Does that then mean we are getting paid somehow? How do you put a price on information?
Much appreciated, oh and please don't start charging us for information on here!!
But the where is the dividing line, of being paid and not? You guys(and gals) with vast amount of experience on here, if you insisted on being paid for everything that's related to 1) your experience, or 2) helicopters, then the likes of guys like me would be in a worse situation because we would have to pay for, as i see it 'the priceless' information that you guys give us for free to help us on our way. Stuff that we would only see for a fee. Then surely this site wouldn't exist? Does that then mean we are getting paid somehow? How do you put a price on information?
Much appreciated, oh and please don't start charging us for information on here!!