Loss Of Nerve ?
"Just a pilot"
I rationalize that I'm better trained to deal with flying than some of the other things that happen-
Glanced up the causeway I was driving on, to see a tractor trailer snaking back and forth- no where to go, but off the edge- no time to stop- fate entirely up to that other driver- who has more than he can handle already.
I aspirated an aspirin, once.
Sitting at work, hear odd, sharp impact noises overhead, and a bullet falls onto the desk.
I'll fly until it's not worth it anymore, then I'll do something else. In the meantime, I know that the vast majority of accidents are pilot failures. I pay attention.
Glanced up the causeway I was driving on, to see a tractor trailer snaking back and forth- no where to go, but off the edge- no time to stop- fate entirely up to that other driver- who has more than he can handle already.
I aspirated an aspirin, once.
Sitting at work, hear odd, sharp impact noises overhead, and a bullet falls onto the desk.
I'll fly until it's not worth it anymore, then I'll do something else. In the meantime, I know that the vast majority of accidents are pilot failures. I pay attention.
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..while chatting to a very experienced driver, he mentioned having a close call once while in the cruise somewhere over the highlands of Papua New Guinea.
He recalled having a very distinct gut feeling that something wasn't right, but he couldn't pin it down at the time, so instead he just slowed the 212 down a little.
A short time later a twatter shot across ahead of him just as he came out of a pass in the mountains.
The moral to his story was to go by your gut feeling and if it doesn't feel right, do something, anything to break the chain of events.
He recalled having a very distinct gut feeling that something wasn't right, but he couldn't pin it down at the time, so instead he just slowed the 212 down a little.
A short time later a twatter shot across ahead of him just as he came out of a pass in the mountains.
The moral to his story was to go by your gut feeling and if it doesn't feel right, do something, anything to break the chain of events.
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Very interesting subject
I read a book on this sort of fear/anxiety a few years ago..it was based on on fighter pilot in WW11 in the battle of Britian. the brits needed pilots badly.. this bloke did the training and got through...they put him in a daytime fighter role and was so sh.t scared was useless...At that stage they (RAF) were putting a night fighter sqadron together called the night stalkers.. he joined this sqadron and came an ace...
His fear was speed and height..
Sorry I can't remember the books title...
google.com has some interesting subjects on night stalkers.
I read a book on this sort of fear/anxiety a few years ago..it was based on on fighter pilot in WW11 in the battle of Britian. the brits needed pilots badly.. this bloke did the training and got through...they put him in a daytime fighter role and was so sh.t scared was useless...At that stage they (RAF) were putting a night fighter sqadron together called the night stalkers.. he joined this sqadron and came an ace...
His fear was speed and height..
Sorry I can't remember the books title...
google.com has some interesting subjects on night stalkers.
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Cloudchaser: Not a pilot but know what you mean, having lived with a pilot for a few years. And even with my own job every now and then you get a reminder that you are breakable.
I once dealt with an incident where I was on my own and thought I was going to be killed... Never wanted to go to work again, let alone go out on my own, but I did and those feelings passed.. Now back to being slightly blase but I'm sure I will be given many reminders I'm not infallible before I retire !!!!
Live life to the full and it wasn't a wasted life.
I once dealt with an incident where I was on my own and thought I was going to be killed... Never wanted to go to work again, let alone go out on my own, but I did and those feelings passed.. Now back to being slightly blase but I'm sure I will be given many reminders I'm not infallible before I retire !!!!
Live life to the full and it wasn't a wasted life.
I must admit to a slight problem with heights (perhaps thats why i switched to helicopters?) It's probably just because I spend all day long on the deck, that on the few occasions i get to 2000' it feels a bit weird. Never used to get that problem in a cessna...
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Hi Cloudchaser,
I think you are pretty normal...I do most of my flying multi engine these days, and around 1 or 2 thousand.
If I take a single engine to altitude, I start thinking about the little mast holding the head etc...which is pretty silly really, considering a fall from 50ft will do you in just the same as one from 5000...and in my earlier days, I used to fly singles at high altitude with no worries or cares...IMC too
These seem to be feelings that cut in over 40 years of age, from what other pilots have shared...
I just grit my teeth and look at the map....
I think you are pretty normal...I do most of my flying multi engine these days, and around 1 or 2 thousand.
If I take a single engine to altitude, I start thinking about the little mast holding the head etc...which is pretty silly really, considering a fall from 50ft will do you in just the same as one from 5000...and in my earlier days, I used to fly singles at high altitude with no worries or cares...IMC too
These seem to be feelings that cut in over 40 years of age, from what other pilots have shared...
I just grit my teeth and look at the map....
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I have not been flying very long. I only got my licence in March. So I don't have the luxury of time to think about feeling uneasy. My head is still full of trying to get it right.
I used to do a lot of skydiving filming (about 1200 jumps). It was easy to me, I would think nothing of strapping a camera helmet to my head, climbing onto the outside of an aeroplane at 13000 feet then diving off after a bunch of craters looking for a grid square.
I used to get those same feelings you mentioned. Even though I had packed my own 'chute, 'dirt dived' and gone through all my emergency procedures in the plane.
I think once the job becomes easy there is the possibility for complacency and your brain subconsciously recognises that.
The feelings you mention are perhaps your subconscious giving you a bit of a reminder.
I found that if I changed my routine for a bit (ie just did some stupid fun jumps) the feelings left.
I used to do a lot of skydiving filming (about 1200 jumps). It was easy to me, I would think nothing of strapping a camera helmet to my head, climbing onto the outside of an aeroplane at 13000 feet then diving off after a bunch of craters looking for a grid square.
I used to get those same feelings you mentioned. Even though I had packed my own 'chute, 'dirt dived' and gone through all my emergency procedures in the plane.
I think once the job becomes easy there is the possibility for complacency and your brain subconsciously recognises that.
The feelings you mention are perhaps your subconscious giving you a bit of a reminder.
I found that if I changed my routine for a bit (ie just did some stupid fun jumps) the feelings left.
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Normal
Seems normal to me too (or am I abnormal already). I have been involved in many and varied dangerous work activities and often get 'That feeling'. I guess it is experience that tells you when to believe it or not. In any case I always take stock of the situation and once you have convinced yourself everything is OK it is time to analyse whether it is irrational or just the normal fight and flight response.
Funnily, being a pilot of other aircraft also I tend to get it at different times. In helicopters it ALWAYS occurs to me while in flight. Never before or after. With other fixed wing aircraft I only ever have had it before or after. Never inflight.
Me I like the adage to never fly with someone braver than you are and if someone says they have never had that feeling and will never get it I would prefer not to fly with them either... I see it as the body and minds own self preservation device and it is natural to want to preserve both (preferably not with liquid preservatives).
Funnily, being a pilot of other aircraft also I tend to get it at different times. In helicopters it ALWAYS occurs to me while in flight. Never before or after. With other fixed wing aircraft I only ever have had it before or after. Never inflight.
Me I like the adage to never fly with someone braver than you are and if someone says they have never had that feeling and will never get it I would prefer not to fly with them either... I see it as the body and minds own self preservation device and it is natural to want to preserve both (preferably not with liquid preservatives).
Grandpa Aerotart
A plank driver's perspective?
In my early 20s learning to fly I was bullet proof. The things I tried in Decathlons teaching myself aerobatics don't bare thinking about for very long...I also 'got away' with a couple of emergencies in my first 300 hrs.
Approaching 1000 hrs, bush flying C185s and Islanders in PNG highlands, about to change jobs, about to get married I was VERY aware that I was in dangerous territory...That was my first year working full time in the industry and I had already lost 6 friends + 1 aquaintance in aircraft accidents...3 pilot mates that year in PNG and 2 non pilot pax in a C210 crash back in Oz and my first Instructor + the chap that did my initial IR in a CAA Bonanza midair with a glider in Oz.
As the years went on I lost on average nearly 3 friends every year I flew in PNG...38 over 13.5 years. Air America didn't lose pilots like that...and we were doing the same flying in the same aircraft but without the Pathet Lao complicating things....much higher mountains though.
I had a few more engine failures but that just made me comfortable that I knew how I reacted under that sort of pressure...I had a couple of REAL close calls with weather and terrain (one a zoom climb in cloud in a Twin Otter with trees flicking past the wheels < 30' away...not caused by flying in IMC below LSALT btw way...caused by drizzle turning instantly to cloud when at very low level in mountainous terrain crossing a gap in bad weather) that left me shaking.
When I finally went airline flying I was very aware that I had 'got away' with something for a very long time...but also that I would never experience as much fun in my daily work again...but also that there was simply very little likelyhood of surviving that style of flying indefinately.
Now I crisscross the world in a Boeing widebody and it is about 30 minutes of fun interspersed with 8-12 hrs of....not fun
I own a Bonanza but where I used to happily fly a C185 around steep jungle clad mountains in all sorts of weather I am uncomfortable in my Bo at night over anything but dead flat terrain. I think that is purely a function of getting used to the increased redundancy of a widebody jet...I have flown my Bo at night in weather and while I enjoyed the challenge I also felt...exposed.
After 12000 hrs I still get a big enough buz from my job that just sliding into my seat puts a smile on my face even if I was in not the best mood before that...my seat in my Bo puts on a bigger smile than the 'company's' seat in the Boeing
I was thinking about taking my Bonanza up to PNG for a 'cook's tour/busman's holiday' next year for a fun trip down memory lane while burning up a mth or two annual leave...but I realised that I wouldn't...because I worried that having survived it once I was taking a significant risk for the sake of a trip down memory lane that will probably sour the memories I have anyway...and now I am a single parent so what right do I have to take that risk...so instead I will go somewhere interesting in Oz and several weeks in Vanuatu staying with a mate out there and diving/sailing etc....the PNG trip would have been fun though....
Aint life a paradox
In my early 20s learning to fly I was bullet proof. The things I tried in Decathlons teaching myself aerobatics don't bare thinking about for very long...I also 'got away' with a couple of emergencies in my first 300 hrs.
Approaching 1000 hrs, bush flying C185s and Islanders in PNG highlands, about to change jobs, about to get married I was VERY aware that I was in dangerous territory...That was my first year working full time in the industry and I had already lost 6 friends + 1 aquaintance in aircraft accidents...3 pilot mates that year in PNG and 2 non pilot pax in a C210 crash back in Oz and my first Instructor + the chap that did my initial IR in a CAA Bonanza midair with a glider in Oz.
As the years went on I lost on average nearly 3 friends every year I flew in PNG...38 over 13.5 years. Air America didn't lose pilots like that...and we were doing the same flying in the same aircraft but without the Pathet Lao complicating things....much higher mountains though.
I had a few more engine failures but that just made me comfortable that I knew how I reacted under that sort of pressure...I had a couple of REAL close calls with weather and terrain (one a zoom climb in cloud in a Twin Otter with trees flicking past the wheels < 30' away...not caused by flying in IMC below LSALT btw way...caused by drizzle turning instantly to cloud when at very low level in mountainous terrain crossing a gap in bad weather) that left me shaking.
When I finally went airline flying I was very aware that I had 'got away' with something for a very long time...but also that I would never experience as much fun in my daily work again...but also that there was simply very little likelyhood of surviving that style of flying indefinately.
Now I crisscross the world in a Boeing widebody and it is about 30 minutes of fun interspersed with 8-12 hrs of....not fun
I own a Bonanza but where I used to happily fly a C185 around steep jungle clad mountains in all sorts of weather I am uncomfortable in my Bo at night over anything but dead flat terrain. I think that is purely a function of getting used to the increased redundancy of a widebody jet...I have flown my Bo at night in weather and while I enjoyed the challenge I also felt...exposed.
After 12000 hrs I still get a big enough buz from my job that just sliding into my seat puts a smile on my face even if I was in not the best mood before that...my seat in my Bo puts on a bigger smile than the 'company's' seat in the Boeing
I was thinking about taking my Bonanza up to PNG for a 'cook's tour/busman's holiday' next year for a fun trip down memory lane while burning up a mth or two annual leave...but I realised that I wouldn't...because I worried that having survived it once I was taking a significant risk for the sake of a trip down memory lane that will probably sour the memories I have anyway...and now I am a single parent so what right do I have to take that risk...so instead I will go somewhere interesting in Oz and several weeks in Vanuatu staying with a mate out there and diving/sailing etc....the PNG trip would have been fun though....
Aint life a paradox
Grandpa Aerotart
Ahhh motorbikes...owned a few...FJ1200...1500CC Honda
When I think of the kicking my Luck Bucket has received over the years
Now I try to shepherd what is left in it... to make it last until the Experience Bucket gets full...the day I stop flying....hopefully a long time in the future
When I think of the kicking my Luck Bucket has received over the years
Now I try to shepherd what is left in it... to make it last until the Experience Bucket gets full...the day I stop flying....hopefully a long time in the future
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That uneasy feeling started for me after the grand kids started arriving. ??? Who knows why but after 30 yrs. mostly all in the rocks of coastal BC I began to wonder is it worth it? So much time on the wrong side of the curve, dangling drip torches, Long lines & anything else that attaches to a belly hook, so many good people who are no longer around to ask for their thoughts on the subject.
Still once my thumb or finger is on the starter it's all good again...for an hour or two. Had this conversation with the companies Op's manager about L.lining some gear to a repeater site in the Rockies at 10,500'. Door off, head out Jeez that's a long way down, first time I'd experienced the feeling. This same person, who was my relief pilot on that job, confided in me at the end of the season that he too had to tighten up the seat belt on that job. Talk it out and find your insights... excellent thread should be more like them.
For me the upside of these contemplations is leading me in other directions and new challenges. No shame I know what I've done, and look forward to what I can do. Your feelings are normal.
Fly safe.
Still once my thumb or finger is on the starter it's all good again...for an hour or two. Had this conversation with the companies Op's manager about L.lining some gear to a repeater site in the Rockies at 10,500'. Door off, head out Jeez that's a long way down, first time I'd experienced the feeling. This same person, who was my relief pilot on that job, confided in me at the end of the season that he too had to tighten up the seat belt on that job. Talk it out and find your insights... excellent thread should be more like them.
For me the upside of these contemplations is leading me in other directions and new challenges. No shame I know what I've done, and look forward to what I can do. Your feelings are normal.
Fly safe.
Last edited by kjw57; 10th Oct 2006 at 14:08. Reason: spelling
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Very Interesting thread CC5...
My personal trigger for a sense of uneasiness,fear and loathing. Is height!
A steady climb to a reasonable altitude is ok! But instant altitude is what gets me.
Flying high to low over a 5000' rim will make me squirm. It's a similar sensation to when I'm watching my wife open a plastic box with a sharp kitchen knife. I just feel uneasy. Nothing's happening, just a sense that I wish I was somewhere else...
I had a great friend years ago who knew I didn't like flying high. We were ferrying a 214B to a jobsite in S. America, and I fell asleep in the right seat during his leg. When I woke up. We were at 10,000'.
It took me 3 days to get over it...
I think we should abandon height minimums and implement height maximums. I can't think of a single reason, legitimate or otherwise that would make me want to fly a helicopter at 10,000'AGL...
For all you guys who know legitimate reasons for high level cruising. Keep it to yourself. I think you're sick puppies, and I won't listen to your Pinko,Athiest blabber!
...170'
ps...CC5...The responses to your post are pretty self evident regarding nerves/sanity. Either we're all ok or we're all nuts!..You are not alone ;-)
My personal trigger for a sense of uneasiness,fear and loathing. Is height!
A steady climb to a reasonable altitude is ok! But instant altitude is what gets me.
Flying high to low over a 5000' rim will make me squirm. It's a similar sensation to when I'm watching my wife open a plastic box with a sharp kitchen knife. I just feel uneasy. Nothing's happening, just a sense that I wish I was somewhere else...
I had a great friend years ago who knew I didn't like flying high. We were ferrying a 214B to a jobsite in S. America, and I fell asleep in the right seat during his leg. When I woke up. We were at 10,000'.
It took me 3 days to get over it...
I think we should abandon height minimums and implement height maximums. I can't think of a single reason, legitimate or otherwise that would make me want to fly a helicopter at 10,000'AGL...
For all you guys who know legitimate reasons for high level cruising. Keep it to yourself. I think you're sick puppies, and I won't listen to your Pinko,Athiest blabber!
...170'ps...CC5...The responses to your post are pretty self evident regarding nerves/sanity. Either we're all ok or we're all nuts!..You are not alone ;-)
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I'd have to agree that the more wrecked machines I recover & the more friends/aquaintances which meet an early demise the more I question the sanity of flying under powerlines or chasing cattle out from under trees. I have recently had a 2 year stint off from flying to get some cash together in a politically & socially unstable country & I don't mind admitting on a few occasions I also had that "what the @#*$ am I doing here" feeling. I've put this feeling down to the evolutionary "fight or flight" instinct, a function designed for self preservation to keep us alert & build up the adrenalin. As the saying goes, we can either be bold or old, but not both. Like some of the previous posters' I have had an experience when the hair stood up on the back of my neck. While surveying powerlines I had an uneasy feeling so I climbed to survey the situation & give myself time to check everything & about 1/2 mile ahead was a long single strand wire across my intended flight path & I know I would not have seen the poles at each end of this span - freaky. As my flying experience built I also came to the conclusion that it was ok to feel "uneasy", as when this happened I found myself checking & double checking guages etc, but if I ever got myself into a situation which caused adrenalin to flow then I had stuffed up severely. Familiarity breeds contempt, fear keeps that contempt in check.
While on this recent jaunt into the 3rd world I also came to the conclusion that if I did have to die(& don't we all) then my first choice is peacefully of old age in the arms of loved ones, second choice in the rolled up wreckage of a helicopter. I do everything humanly possible to eliminate the risks of each flight but accept the fact that at some stage it is possible that won't be enough.
While on this recent jaunt into the 3rd world I also came to the conclusion that if I did have to die(& don't we all) then my first choice is peacefully of old age in the arms of loved ones, second choice in the rolled up wreckage of a helicopter. I do everything humanly possible to eliminate the risks of each flight but accept the fact that at some stage it is possible that won't be enough.
"The INTRODUCER"
Similar kinds of 'irrational' fears are well-documented among some of the best and brightest out there. RAF medical literature, from memory, identifies phenomena such as a feeling of fearful loneliness flying between 8/8 layers (often cured just by making a radio call), and the alarming sensation of being balanced on the point of a needle at altitude.
One up to Pprune that people feel they can talk about it here. Probably no better solution than sharing it.
One up to Pprune that people feel they can talk about it here. Probably no better solution than sharing it.
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something doesn't feel right!!!
I had an indepth talk with an ex mil pilot who stated sometimes you just get that feeling like you shouldn't be flying today!
I personally feel that it can be positive and negative,
Positive: It may give you a situational awareness advantage, that you are constantly on the scan, looking for safe places to land (providing it doesn't FALL APART)
Negative: It may consume to much of your thoughts and concentration, distracting you from the task at hand "Aviate, Navigate & communicate"
you may get so worked up that it basically drives you into a state on phycosis where any second your waiting for the a blade to depart . .
best conclusion i can draw to, anything that falls off is out of my control, so i try to push it to the back of my thoughts (thourough Pre flight "Might" help put the mind at ease), but finding some where to auto, or keeping a keen scan to get onto a indication before it becomes a problem is something you can be "Prepared" for.
At least you'd hope to make the 5pm news for your 30 seconds of fame, then chances are it'l be blamed on Pilot error to save the manufactures/engineers/(enter name here) having to fix the problem.
I personally feel that it can be positive and negative,
Positive: It may give you a situational awareness advantage, that you are constantly on the scan, looking for safe places to land (providing it doesn't FALL APART)
Negative: It may consume to much of your thoughts and concentration, distracting you from the task at hand "Aviate, Navigate & communicate"
you may get so worked up that it basically drives you into a state on phycosis where any second your waiting for the a blade to depart . .
best conclusion i can draw to, anything that falls off is out of my control, so i try to push it to the back of my thoughts (thourough Pre flight "Might" help put the mind at ease), but finding some where to auto, or keeping a keen scan to get onto a indication before it becomes a problem is something you can be "Prepared" for.
At least you'd hope to make the 5pm news for your 30 seconds of fame, then chances are it'l be blamed on Pilot error to save the manufactures/engineers/(enter name here) having to fix the problem.
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I decided to give up flying, spent hours deciding, then comfirmed my decision in my mind........the following day my mind was on the (how do i break it gently but by leaving the door open to my employers) sketch whilst walking to work...........Boom, i ended up on the bonnet of a car which had`nt seen me and i had been oblivious to them as my mind was miles away luckily it was low speed...........changed my mind and havent sent the e-mail yet!!!!!!!!
Is this the time to discuss the "Single Breath" method of cruise height selection?
Some may know it as the "Single Scream Height".
Theory is....if one flys at a height that provides for a good hearty "scream" until impact, without requiring a second breath to carry on, then one will not get scared into a panic mode on the way out and seemingly will not have time to decide it is not your time yet and die all conflicted.
It is said...far fewer ghosts would be created by this method of height choosing. Some reckon ghosts come from souls that were not ready to cross over that bar.
Some may know it as the "Single Scream Height".
Theory is....if one flys at a height that provides for a good hearty "scream" until impact, without requiring a second breath to carry on, then one will not get scared into a panic mode on the way out and seemingly will not have time to decide it is not your time yet and die all conflicted.
It is said...far fewer ghosts would be created by this method of height choosing. Some reckon ghosts come from souls that were not ready to cross over that bar.
Once saw the smudges of grease round the rivets on a B206 looming through the window. Lived to tell the tail, drank two bottles of Gin that night with the pilot in the RHS (was an observed training flight). One day I was glad to be alive, the next day I wished I was dead: God I felt ill!
Realising you are now dead is an experience I would wish on no one.
Realising you are now dead is an experience I would wish on no one.