Becoming an Instructor & related FI questions
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: England
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Bit of a vicious reply from bellfest? I started as an instructor in the US had about 162 hours give or take a few minutes.
When my chief pilot took me for breakfast apart from imparting his own 3 rules he answered my question about my own feelings regarding my lack of hours.
His attitude was that you can fly well enough to awarded a Commercial helicopter rating and a Certified Flight Instructor rating.
So as long as you can demonstrate exactly the manouvre you are teaching, at the correct speed, heights, rates of climb or descent then it doesn't matter how many hours you have it cannot be done any more exactly!
Sure I didn't know anything about load lifting, filming, police or hems flying, but then I wasn't trying to teach any of that either.
Be precise, accurate and never ever show off, resist that urge at the end of an hour flogging around the sky to say "Relax, I have control....."
The best instructor I have had, never touched the controls except to help.
By all means get the extra ratings, each time you get in the aircraft again as a student will help you remember what your students are going through! and they WILL make you a better pilot.
Fly safe
When my chief pilot took me for breakfast apart from imparting his own 3 rules he answered my question about my own feelings regarding my lack of hours.
His attitude was that you can fly well enough to awarded a Commercial helicopter rating and a Certified Flight Instructor rating.
So as long as you can demonstrate exactly the manouvre you are teaching, at the correct speed, heights, rates of climb or descent then it doesn't matter how many hours you have it cannot be done any more exactly!
Sure I didn't know anything about load lifting, filming, police or hems flying, but then I wasn't trying to teach any of that either.
Be precise, accurate and never ever show off, resist that urge at the end of an hour flogging around the sky to say "Relax, I have control....."
The best instructor I have had, never touched the controls except to help.
By all means get the extra ratings, each time you get in the aircraft again as a student will help you remember what your students are going through! and they WILL make you a better pilot.
Fly safe
ec135, My intention was not to be vicious, as you can see from my post re: IR's I just think that there should be a certain amount of practicle experience gained prior to instructing whether its autos or circuits purely for the students benefit. Particularly instrument flying. I am not saying that there are not low houred instructors out there that can't be a worthy benefit to the student, I am saying that there are definetely ones out there that can't be and that's what needs to be stopped. Hands_on123 might be a gun and have the ability to give a student every cents worth of his money payed but the law of averages says he won't be. Bit like takin your car to the mechanic and havin the apprentice do the work, except it doesn't cost $35,000 +.
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Bellfest, you have certainly made your beliefs known!
However, especially with the IR, there is an aspect to learning you overlooked. IFR flight is first and foremost about procedure. Following procedure, understanding how to use the system, knowing the rules. Although there might be a lot of grey in the sky, there is little grey in the flying.
The undeclared, but tacitly official route to being a turbine pilot is via getting your ratings then working as an instructor (or the military, but that channel won't supply more than a small percent of the new pilots needed). Therefore, the civilian CFII track has become the "internship".
I understand your dismay at having someone who most likely has never piloted in actual training new IFR students, but remember that if the pilot is well-trained on instrument scan and aircraft control, procedure, weather, ATC and so on, then the presence of "actual" should not aversely affect the pilot's abilities. Since that CFII will most likely teach hundreds of hours of IFR training, they will be well drilled and practiced in all elements of IFR flight. Their students will likewise spend their time as CFII's. Only one in a thousand may somehow skip this step.
(In case you're wondering, I have never flown a helicopter in actual, nor would I want my first such flight to be SPIFR. However, I've never flown an EC130 either, nor would I want my first flight in one to be solo. This doesn't invalidate my training or CFI/CFII experience.)
Finally, the evidence shows (your gut feeling doesn't count) that our system for developing new IFR pilots is working. The helicopter IFR incidents/accidents seem to be indifferent to the relative experience level of the PIC (in terms of hours, anyway).
In the dream world (at least for this CFII), we would take new CFII's, put them in the SIC position for a few hundred hours, then return them to train new IFR pilots. However the safety stats for IFR ops don't seem call for that. They call for a review of operational policy, not pilot training.
However, especially with the IR, there is an aspect to learning you overlooked. IFR flight is first and foremost about procedure. Following procedure, understanding how to use the system, knowing the rules. Although there might be a lot of grey in the sky, there is little grey in the flying.
The undeclared, but tacitly official route to being a turbine pilot is via getting your ratings then working as an instructor (or the military, but that channel won't supply more than a small percent of the new pilots needed). Therefore, the civilian CFII track has become the "internship".
I understand your dismay at having someone who most likely has never piloted in actual training new IFR students, but remember that if the pilot is well-trained on instrument scan and aircraft control, procedure, weather, ATC and so on, then the presence of "actual" should not aversely affect the pilot's abilities. Since that CFII will most likely teach hundreds of hours of IFR training, they will be well drilled and practiced in all elements of IFR flight. Their students will likewise spend their time as CFII's. Only one in a thousand may somehow skip this step.
(In case you're wondering, I have never flown a helicopter in actual, nor would I want my first such flight to be SPIFR. However, I've never flown an EC130 either, nor would I want my first flight in one to be solo. This doesn't invalidate my training or CFI/CFII experience.)
Finally, the evidence shows (your gut feeling doesn't count) that our system for developing new IFR pilots is working. The helicopter IFR incidents/accidents seem to be indifferent to the relative experience level of the PIC (in terms of hours, anyway).
In the dream world (at least for this CFII), we would take new CFII's, put them in the SIC position for a few hundred hours, then return them to train new IFR pilots. However the safety stats for IFR ops don't seem call for that. They call for a review of operational policy, not pilot training.
Gatvol
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Bellfast jumps in with both feet for sure. FAA says you can get lots of ratings with low times. Seaplane add on is five hours if you have a private. Try and get someone to let you use there C206 with only 5 hours on floats. Not going to happen. Commercial Helicopter add on... Not many hours either if you have fixed wing time. Still no reason to jump in a Helicopter and play sky god.,
Licenses themselves are a permit to go learn more. IF you have an opportunity to get more ratings, go for it. It will do nothing more than keep your head in the books a little longer and cannot hurt your advancement in your career.
Licenses themselves are a permit to go learn more. IF you have an opportunity to get more ratings, go for it. It will do nothing more than keep your head in the books a little longer and cannot hurt your advancement in your career.
Flingwing, maybe I should tone it down a tad as I don't want to sound as though I am vindictive towards those who are trying to gain experience. The reason the statistics show that these accidents don't occur is because in the real world pilots of that calibre aren't allowed to conduct any serious type of IF flying without an experienced captain in the other seat. I am by no means an experienced IFR pilot but have a couple of hundred hours night experience offshore the majority being IMC and I'll be damned if I think I am ready to try and teach anyone how to do it yet. I feel confident in all aspects of IFR flight but when you're exposed to the elements and the pressure is on, äctual"IF is a far cry from the training. All in all mate I guess I could just button up as it will only go as well as the CFI overseaing the operation will allow. Hands_on123 I sincerely hope that if you choose this path you have a long and fruitful career and are able to give the students what they are paying for
Gatvol
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"so the FAA IR is pretty worthless when i return to europe"
Again heres another way to look at it. If you have the money......
The rating may not do you any good, but the training will be cheaper in the states and make it easier for you to get your rating back across the pond. And it may save your butt should you get into one of those "Inadvertant IMC" conditions that kill most who do not have the rating..
Again heres another way to look at it. If you have the money......
The rating may not do you any good, but the training will be cheaper in the states and make it easier for you to get your rating back across the pond. And it may save your butt should you get into one of those "Inadvertant IMC" conditions that kill most who do not have the rating..
Join Date: Jun 1999
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hands_on123
If you intend to use a J1 visa to the maximum then the gaining of a CFII will help that goal as it will help you gain your first job faster. Plus it helps you gain more hours as you will be the instructor available to teach basic IFR instruction, as required, during FAA Commercial training.
It will also help you in the future when you decide to do the JAA instrument as you will have various dispensations for already holding an ICAO instrument.
If someone could give a constructive alternative in the US to instructing for your first job I'm sure most would head in that direction. Unfortunately there isn't!!
If you intend to use a J1 visa to the maximum then the gaining of a CFII will help that goal as it will help you gain your first job faster. Plus it helps you gain more hours as you will be the instructor available to teach basic IFR instruction, as required, during FAA Commercial training.
It will also help you in the future when you decide to do the JAA instrument as you will have various dispensations for already holding an ICAO instrument.
If someone could give a constructive alternative in the US to instructing for your first job I'm sure most would head in that direction. Unfortunately there isn't!!
Rotorbee - I think you should address your criticisms to the helicopter industry not the military. How many helicopter operators actually train their own ab-initio pilots? How many are happy for others to train them (military, self-help etc) and then employ them? The reasons are surely financial as each operator seeks to squeeze the last buck from the contract. Does this mean it's right? I don't think so and it encourages the nomadic tendencies of the commercial helo pilot who needs show little loyalty to a company who has shown him none.
There is no way on earth that a low time instructor can give the same quality of training as one with experience - he/she will spend most of their time twitching as the student tries to kill them rather than anticipating the error as they have seen it many times before.
There is no way on earth that a low time instructor can give the same quality of training as one with experience - he/she will spend most of their time twitching as the student tries to kill them rather than anticipating the error as they have seen it many times before.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Instructing
Helicopter Intstructing
Has anYone out there got any idea what a newly qualed rotory instructor could expect to earn in the uk or abroad.
I am a ex military helo engineer by trade
Has anYone out there got any idea what a newly qualed rotory instructor could expect to earn in the uk or abroad.
I am a ex military helo engineer by trade
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
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£30-40 per flying hour in the UK. How much you actually nmake depends on how many hours you can fit in...most people save over the summer for those dark, bad weather winters. 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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30 - 45 pounds an hour sounds about right you can expect between 15 to 25 grand a year depends how much of your social life you want to give up. But if you ex mil why not try going straight for a commercial job as most of the larger companies have ex mil pilots at the top anyway.
The Original Whirly
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Er, working as a part-time heli Instructor (by all accounts).
And now may I suggest that this thread which has been resurrected from the depths should be allowed to die a natural death...again!
Join Date: May 2004
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The cheapest way to get a AFI(H)
Hi fellow Rotorvators,
I have a basic PPL(H) on an R22, and I'm thinking of getting into instructing. As I'm told I'm basically too old to get involved in commercial flying, having reached the ripe old age of 43. I also have a PPL(A) with around 130 HRS TT. I guess with current hire rates, it may be prudent to go to the states. But I guess you have to offset this against air-fares, accomodation and fair weather flying (generally).
Anyone do anyhting similar?
Any advice gratefully received
Dave
I have a basic PPL(H) on an R22, and I'm thinking of getting into instructing. As I'm told I'm basically too old to get involved in commercial flying, having reached the ripe old age of 43. I also have a PPL(A) with around 130 HRS TT. I guess with current hire rates, it may be prudent to go to the states. But I guess you have to offset this against air-fares, accomodation and fair weather flying (generally).
Anyone do anyhting similar?
Any advice gratefully received
Dave
Join Date: Apr 2003
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hey flyingdogguitar
I think that the advice you have been given is total horse s**t,
there should be no reason why you should not get your instructor rating build your hours and progress in time and with experience to charter on R44/B206 or similar with an onshore organisation.
I agree that getting into north sea flying may be tough, but even this could possibly be done if you had an instrument rating in due course. (before you get really crusty!)
organisations in my experience dont look too much at age, they look at how much will it cost them to get this bloke on line and how much experience he has, there is no sentimentality, but loads of commercial expediency
regards
CF
I think that the advice you have been given is total horse s**t,
there should be no reason why you should not get your instructor rating build your hours and progress in time and with experience to charter on R44/B206 or similar with an onshore organisation.
I agree that getting into north sea flying may be tough, but even this could possibly be done if you had an instrument rating in due course. (before you get really crusty!)
organisations in my experience dont look too much at age, they look at how much will it cost them to get this bloke on line and how much experience he has, there is no sentimentality, but loads of commercial expediency
regards
CF
Join Date: Aug 2004
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About to start FI course, recommended reading
Hi,
I am about to start FI course and I wonder if anyone has any recommended reading pre course start.
I finished ATPL exams in May so am quite fresh and re-reading coursework, have re read Wagtendonk about 10 times and 50% of it makes sense now! Fatal traps too, but are there any other books I should know well beforehand, learning R22 flight manual inside out.
The helicopter instructor manual is available on e-bay at the mo' is it worth buying?
Plus any other advice generally.
Thanks
I am about to start FI course and I wonder if anyone has any recommended reading pre course start.
I finished ATPL exams in May so am quite fresh and re-reading coursework, have re read Wagtendonk about 10 times and 50% of it makes sense now! Fatal traps too, but are there any other books I should know well beforehand, learning R22 flight manual inside out.
The helicopter instructor manual is available on e-bay at the mo' is it worth buying?
Plus any other advice generally.
Thanks
FI(H) 500 Hour Criterion
Can anyone provide the reference for 500TT prior to teaching at a commercial level? Have looked in LASORS and ANO, but perhaps have missed it?
Thanks
TT
Thanks
TT
500 Hour Criterion
I have a definitive answer on this now as per the CAA. It is not in the ANO or LASORs. However it is a requirement as per JAR-FCL 2.330(b).
The 250 requirement Whirly is a min TT expereince requirement to begin an FI(H) course. Once qualified you can only teach to PPL level until the restriction has been lifted and the above regulation is satisfied.
TT
The 250 requirement Whirly is a min TT expereince requirement to begin an FI(H) course. Once qualified you can only teach to PPL level until the restriction has been lifted and the above regulation is satisfied.
TT