ec135, My intention was not to be vicious, as you can see from my post re: IR's I just think that there should be a certain amount of practicle experience gained prior to instructing whether its autos or circuits purely for the students benefit. Particularly instrument flying. I am not saying that there are not low houred instructors out there that can't be a worthy benefit to the student, I am saying that there are definetely ones out there that can't be and that's what needs to be stopped. Hands_on123 might be a gun and have the ability to give a student every cents worth of his money payed but the law of averages says he won't be. Bit like takin your car to the mechanic and havin the apprentice do the work, except it doesn't cost $35,000 +.