Australia: Training, Licence Conversion, Job Prospects
I agree with John Bicker (how is the boat?)- the huge majority of jobs in Oz are in AS350 or smaller, Day VFR with the occasional Night VMC task. You need no more than your commercial licence and a night rating and a turbine endorsement to be prepared for almost anything.
When I interview new pilots, seeing a list of high qualifications with low hours means one thing - this person is ambitious and will jump ship at the first opportunity. BUT! This is to be expected. A charter operator must expect pilots to progress through the system. They learn new skills with the operator, use them for some time to become fully familiar with them, get put onto newer and bigger tasks, and eventually they are doing everything in that operator's bag of tricks.
This takes (from our normal pilot turnover) about 2 years. Then the ambitious move on. If the pilot is not ambitious, I wonder why, and have a closer look at his motivations for staying. We certainly don't push pilots out, and if one chooses to stay for 3 or 4 years we are very happy. But it tees me off when somebody is "promoted" with an aircraft endorsement and immediately pushes off.
Anybody with IREX and ATPL who only has <1000 hours will have lots of time on their hands waiting for the heavy twin IFR job, so why don't you sign up as the new HAA president???
When I interview new pilots, seeing a list of high qualifications with low hours means one thing - this person is ambitious and will jump ship at the first opportunity. BUT! This is to be expected. A charter operator must expect pilots to progress through the system. They learn new skills with the operator, use them for some time to become fully familiar with them, get put onto newer and bigger tasks, and eventually they are doing everything in that operator's bag of tricks.
This takes (from our normal pilot turnover) about 2 years. Then the ambitious move on. If the pilot is not ambitious, I wonder why, and have a closer look at his motivations for staying. We certainly don't push pilots out, and if one chooses to stay for 3 or 4 years we are very happy. But it tees me off when somebody is "promoted" with an aircraft endorsement and immediately pushes off.
Anybody with IREX and ATPL who only has <1000 hours will have lots of time on their hands waiting for the heavy twin IFR job, so why don't you sign up as the new HAA president???
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Ascend Charlie: Being a newbie thinking about getting a CPL(H), is that to say a student with <1000 hours is wasting their time getting IREX and ATPL(H)?
From your perspective, what's the best way to (initially) prove motivation when a candidate has the quals but low hours? Does the scenario you said impress you sufficiently?
Thanks,
Chris
From your perspective, what's the best way to (initially) prove motivation when a candidate has the quals but low hours? Does the scenario you said impress you sufficiently?
Thanks,
Chris
Well, i wouldn't say it was a waste of time - qualifications like that will always stand you in good stead. But there might be more important things to do.
We normally had a company minimum of 1000 hrs PIC, because the contracts we held stipulated this minimum. But on three occasions so far we have hired pilots with 400hrs PIC/800 copilot, and 2 at 700 hrs PIC. We had to put them on other tasks until their PIC time built up, but we took them on because they were keen, dedicated, presented well, and were going to have to stretch to fit the job.
They beat some old-timers who, instead of stretching themselves to be able to do it, were looking more to stretch out and snooze for a few years in a "cushy" charter job. Even though some had 5000 or 7000 hours, we took the junior guy because of attitude. I didn't care if they had IREX or ATPL because these attributes were superfluous to the job. CPLH, NVFR, sling preferable, and able to talk me into giving them the job.
We normally had a company minimum of 1000 hrs PIC, because the contracts we held stipulated this minimum. But on three occasions so far we have hired pilots with 400hrs PIC/800 copilot, and 2 at 700 hrs PIC. We had to put them on other tasks until their PIC time built up, but we took them on because they were keen, dedicated, presented well, and were going to have to stretch to fit the job.
They beat some old-timers who, instead of stretching themselves to be able to do it, were looking more to stretch out and snooze for a few years in a "cushy" charter job. Even though some had 5000 or 7000 hours, we took the junior guy because of attitude. I didn't care if they had IREX or ATPL because these attributes were superfluous to the job. CPLH, NVFR, sling preferable, and able to talk me into giving them the job.
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Ascend Charlie: Thanks for the reply. Though I imagine it differs in each person's case, what would you say are things that are sometimes more important?
Assume someone graduates to get their CPL with, hypothetically, 120 hours. What's the most common job for new recruits to improve their hours? Mustering cattle in the middle of nowhere? I mean, what're the most common paths to get to a point where someone in your position would hire them?
On another note, what's the relevance/benefit of having ATPL(H)? I mean, I can see how IREX might be beneficial, but I'm not too sure which jobs would requre ATPL and which ones wouldn't..
Assume someone graduates to get their CPL with, hypothetically, 120 hours. What's the most common job for new recruits to improve their hours? Mustering cattle in the middle of nowhere? I mean, what're the most common paths to get to a point where someone in your position would hire them?
On another note, what's the relevance/benefit of having ATPL(H)? I mean, I can see how IREX might be beneficial, but I'm not too sure which jobs would requre ATPL and which ones wouldn't..
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Careful with advice..........
I gather all the folk giving advice about the wisdom of IREX and ATPL have studied the CASR drafts of Part 61, 91 and 133???
Even today there are limitations of what a CPL Holder can "Command"......under Air Transport in the new CASR's this "may" become more limiting.
I say "May" because Part 133 is still in draft form.
Mr Selfish......the IREX Examination may seem irrelevant if you are not an IFR pilot.....however it provides the basis for you to expand upon, as you develop your new skill.
Even today there are limitations of what a CPL Holder can "Command"......under Air Transport in the new CASR's this "may" become more limiting.
I say "May" because Part 133 is still in draft form.
Mr Selfish......the IREX Examination may seem irrelevant if you are not an IFR pilot.....however it provides the basis for you to expand upon, as you develop your new skill.
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Mr Selfish: Great, thanks for that. 
Red Wine: Would you please be able to give me a (very) quick overview of what the aforementioned rulings entail?
Or, better yet; is there a quick & easy reference anywhere as to what jobs require (either as an essential requirement or just something beneficial) which certifications? Thanks!
Red Wine: Would you please be able to give me a (very) quick overview of what the aforementioned rulings entail?
Or, better yet; is there a quick & easy reference anywhere as to what jobs require (either as an essential requirement or just something beneficial) which certifications? Thanks!
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ATPL & IREX
Having them out of the way certainly cannot do you any harm.If you got the time to do it then don't dick around listening to blokes tell that you will never need it.Maybe you won't.But you might aswell put yourself at the front of the line.Sure there are people who get on to fly larger ships in this country without them,but no command! Head up to NT.you will meet 10,000hr mustering jockeys and yes even they have or are studying for the ATPL.Keep your options open.
As far as the future president goes Charlie,just make sure it goes to some body who does not own their own chopper business.Already to much self-interest in this industry.
Having them out of the way certainly cannot do you any harm.If you got the time to do it then don't dick around listening to blokes tell that you will never need it.Maybe you won't.But you might aswell put yourself at the front of the line.Sure there are people who get on to fly larger ships in this country without them,but no command! Head up to NT.you will meet 10,000hr mustering jockeys and yes even they have or are studying for the ATPL.Keep your options open.
As far as the future president goes Charlie,just make sure it goes to some body who does not own their own chopper business.Already to much self-interest in this industry.
Divine Wind: (isn't that the translation of "kamikazi"?)
Yes, that was a serious slip-up, wasn't it.
But he was the only person to put his hand up at the time, and with a volunteer organisation, we need volunteers. What could we do? Andhis election spiel was convincing, we thought he could be the New Young Achiever to keep us going.
Bong.
Wrong.
Take off all your clothes.
Yes, that was a serious slip-up, wasn't it.
But he was the only person to put his hand up at the time, and with a volunteer organisation, we need volunteers. What could we do? Andhis election spiel was convincing, we thought he could be the New Young Achiever to keep us going.
Bong.
Wrong.
Take off all your clothes.
make sure it goes to some body who does not own their own chopper business
Good on you, terrific attitude DW. Wonder how the Vic/Tas HAA survived under the last two local chairmen, who are both operators.
Wonder why it's nearly defunct now, with little or no local interest, but plenty of your sort of outlook
Wonder why it's nearly defunct now, with little or no local interest, but plenty of your sort of outlook
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John........
I certainly don't want to muddy the waters here..........
But there has always been a distrust of the HAA due to the percentage of "Operators" involved.
However there is also a void of line personnel willing to do the tasks that the HAA are endeavoring to accomplish.
Catch 22.
But there has always been a distrust of the HAA due to the percentage of "Operators" involved.
However there is also a void of line personnel willing to do the tasks that the HAA are endeavoring to accomplish.
Catch 22.
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Catch 22 certainly RW and yes JE I see your point,but why nominate a national president who owns a business which advertises heavily in the most gulllible end of the industry and NO,this is not personal. Plenty of people have mistrust here.Why would a guy who mustered 7 days a week in a ****-box,out of time robbie for $200 a week really care.But then again that is the type of person who may be passionate enough to change things.I did not do this but I know plenty of guys who have.I have knocked back work from so called "industry legends".Why risk my own ticket & life while the boss makes a fortune.Why are these blokes still allowed to operate? My point is that I would be pretty annoyed if he then became president of an Association which is supposed to be representing me.
What I see is a group(HAA) which is not visible enough.The Victorian region is not a quiet one.
As for me I am off to the northern hemishpere after popping the big question.
What I see is a group(HAA) which is not visible enough.The Victorian region is not a quiet one.
As for me I am off to the northern hemishpere after popping the big question.
Last edited by DIVINE WIND; 19th May 2003 at 14:06.
Catch 22
The history of the HAA, from day 1, has involved lots of self achievers who have been willing to give of their time and labours for the good of the industry. Most have had their own business interests, which have generally been well seperated from any HAA conflicts. Dan Tyler, Terry Lee, Garry Ticehurst, Brett Newman and myself have all stepped forward, and generally all been tarred with the brush of "self interest".
Wonder why there are few "New Young Oz Achievers"? Or at least those who will put in time for the industry that gives them an income and a future
Wonder why there are few "New Young Oz Achievers"? Or at least those who will put in time for the industry that gives them an income and a future
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Wonder why there are few "New Young Oz Achievers"? Or at least those who will put in time for the industry that gives them an income and a future
Payer or payee,shafter or shaftee. The former is always happy to say "geez sorry mate,your just not capable yet,no I just don't think your ready for that next step,really son the new breed will just never have the skill we do"
regardless of dedication or know-how untill of course your ready to give it away.Please don't take offence Charlie.So you see JE you now know where all the young achievers are.They are trying to open up a business next door to you if they see the opportunity.Hence self-interest.
Don't preach about income it is earned fair and square.
Time,what spare time is a payee given to do anything else in between catching ZZZZZZZZZ'S.
The people you are wondering about don't owe you nothing.
Payer or payee,shafter or shaftee. The former is always happy to say "geez sorry mate,your just not capable yet,no I just don't think your ready for that next step,really son the new breed will just never have the skill we do"
regardless of dedication or know-how untill of course your ready to give it away.Please don't take offence Charlie.So you see JE you now know where all the young achievers are.They are trying to open up a business next door to you if they see the opportunity.Hence self-interest.Don't preach about income it is earned fair and square.
Time,what spare time is a payee given to do anything else in between catching ZZZZZZZZZ'S.
The people you are wondering about don't owe you nothing.
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Two years ago I spoke to and emailed Dan Tyler regarding setting up a "West Australian Chapter" for the 'HAA', at the time I was an AFAP Branch Committee member (representing the Rotory Wing 'RW' sector) and a member of the Airspace Advisory committee for WA and very much interested in development of same. After a brief chat and one or two emails I received an email that read 'At this time we believe we have adequate representation in WA for the HAA'... Oh I thought? that's strange I didn;t know of any?
At that time I had been in the RW industry for 14 years, worked all over Aus, and in my opinion I could offer not only a bit of experience but enthusiasm and membership support.
In 4 years of operationg in the Perth/Metro area for a large commercial company/operator I did not once here about or know of ANY HAA representation/interest over there.
The only reason I joined the AFAP in the first place was beacause the HAA was an absoulute joke at representing the RW Industry, the only thing that they represented was the names mentioned above...
PS: I rejoined the HAA early last year in order to show my support and as they say "put up or shut up". I can say that - nothing has changed! hence I have not renewed my subs this year.
At that time I had been in the RW industry for 14 years, worked all over Aus, and in my opinion I could offer not only a bit of experience but enthusiasm and membership support.
In 4 years of operationg in the Perth/Metro area for a large commercial company/operator I did not once here about or know of ANY HAA representation/interest over there.
The only reason I joined the AFAP in the first place was beacause the HAA was an absoulute joke at representing the RW Industry, the only thing that they represented was the names mentioned above...
PS: I rejoined the HAA early last year in order to show my support and as they say "put up or shut up". I can say that - nothing has changed! hence I have not renewed my subs this year.
Wonder why there are few "New Young Oz Achievers"? Or at least those who will put in time for the industry that gives them an income and a future
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Yes Clearance, I too, when young, innocent, enthusiastic but inexperienced, went to two (I think) meetings of the Vic / Tas Region held at PHS if I recall.
John Eacott was at the helm, looking down his nose ‘at the new boy’.
What a bunch of pompous, self-serving, self-righteous gits.
I would assume nothing has much changed over the years.
The Presidency certainly was, and I guess still is, used as a marketing tool for the Presidents commercial business...for a fact.
That’s why it never amounted to anything….and probably never will.
Mack.
John Eacott was at the helm, looking down his nose ‘at the new boy’.
What a bunch of pompous, self-serving, self-righteous gits.
I would assume nothing has much changed over the years.
The Presidency certainly was, and I guess still is, used as a marketing tool for the Presidents commercial business...for a fact.
That’s why it never amounted to anything….and probably never will.
Mack.
Wow - what a wakeup message this is.
I didn't think that the new generation had such bad feelings about the "about to hand over" generation.
In NSW, where I had personal knowledge, the couple of past presidents were Gary Ticehurst (Ch 2) and Dan Tyler (Careflight). Apart from gary's film interests, there were no commercial barrows to be pushed, and no reason to try to hold back or discourage new starters. Dan in particular, being one of the founding fathers of the HAA, was always saddened to hear of the conflicts of the VIC branch, and there was considerable blood-letting down there. At one stage that branch had the most members, numbering several hundred. Now there is lucky to be 20, and one of the most dedicated is a man who was kicked in the teeth by several of the executive and almost drummed out of town.
But now he is one of the only voices trying to shout out that we should look again at the HAA. He is trying to show the way ahead for a group, not the way that one high-profile individual is going which will almost certainly kill all hopes for public acceptance of heliports in suburban areas.
I can't apologise for the way you have been treated by past barrow-pushers. But don't give up on the HAA. It will only be by YOUR efforts that these others get voted out. There has to be an opposition to force a vote. If nobody stands up against someone they don't like, then that person will stay there for ever.
I didn't think that the new generation had such bad feelings about the "about to hand over" generation.
In NSW, where I had personal knowledge, the couple of past presidents were Gary Ticehurst (Ch 2) and Dan Tyler (Careflight). Apart from gary's film interests, there were no commercial barrows to be pushed, and no reason to try to hold back or discourage new starters. Dan in particular, being one of the founding fathers of the HAA, was always saddened to hear of the conflicts of the VIC branch, and there was considerable blood-letting down there. At one stage that branch had the most members, numbering several hundred. Now there is lucky to be 20, and one of the most dedicated is a man who was kicked in the teeth by several of the executive and almost drummed out of town.
But now he is one of the only voices trying to shout out that we should look again at the HAA. He is trying to show the way ahead for a group, not the way that one high-profile individual is going which will almost certainly kill all hopes for public acceptance of heliports in suburban areas.
I can't apologise for the way you have been treated by past barrow-pushers. But don't give up on the HAA. It will only be by YOUR efforts that these others get voted out. There has to be an opposition to force a vote. If nobody stands up against someone they don't like, then that person will stay there for ever.
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Clearance and AV8R
Although I think you are a pair of bone-heads (only joking boys!) I do think you have hit the nail on the head. The HAA couldn't organise the proverbial in a brothel with a fistful of you subscriptions. I think the young achievers are waiting for the old guard to get out of the way or die so they can take the industry to the next level.
Although I think you are a pair of bone-heads (only joking boys!) I do think you have hit the nail on the head. The HAA couldn't organise the proverbial in a brothel with a fistful of you subscriptions. I think the young achievers are waiting for the old guard to get out of the way or die so they can take the industry to the next level.